1967/1969 Bonnie Rebuild Desert Sled Project

[Sundance]

For all - I curious what is the opinion on a battery free system with the Triumph. I've seen this set up and am curious about it - pros and cons - Battery Elimination Electrical Kit package #2 setup for Triumph or BSA Twins.

As you all know I'm new to this. This seems an attractive option, but I'mm wondering if I am missing some features of having a battery?

 

[Greyfell]

Here is another possible source: Brit Bike Bits

The explanation they provide for the Power Box is very clear why a battery is not needed, but is "insurance."

 

[Rudie]

My gut reaction is go with the original.

The Monoblocs the OP has are not original to the engine the OP has.

curious what is the opinion on a battery free system

Ime, they are awful.

To be clear, "battery free" reg/rec replace the battery with an internal capacitor. If this is such a great idea, which modern vehicle has reg/rec with a capacitor (with or without a battery for "insurance")? Also, the latter claim is dubious, it might depend on the type of capacitor, but certainly some capacitor types when faulty will drain any connected battery.

Before 68, Triumph (and other British makers) fitted the Lucas battery free system to a few models. US legislators effectively outlawed battery free systems on new bikes made after 1967 by mandating the rear light had to remain on even if the engine stopped.

You posted earlier you are planning to fit an electronic ignition. E.i. made points, condensers (capacitors) and mechanical auto advance obsolete within two or three years of battery free being made obsolete ... more than half a century ago ...

With the exception of a few small capacity engines, for at least the last four decades, engines in road vehicles have had 3-phase alternators simply charging a battery, which powers electronic ignition. It is a reliable system. Afaict there is not a 3-phase reg/rec with a capacitor (for battery free) so you would limit any alternator upgrade to available single phase types.

I appreciate batteries do fail, but so do capacitors. Testing a battery to discover if it is failing is easy - if no local auto electrician/battery shop, numerous inexpensive testers, and new batteries, are available on the internet. I am sure capacitor testing/testers are available; as widely as battery testing? When a battery free capacitor fails, cost (money and time) of sourcing a new one?

 

[Greyfell]

Thanks, Rudie, for sharing your experienced view. Again, I learned something new .

There are multimeters that have the capability to test diodes and capacitors (I used one at my job for over 10 years), but they are not inexpensive. They would cost as much as the battery-free kit Sundance was looking at.

 

[grandpaul]

Being that this is already a non-original mix-n-match bike, I'd go with new Premier Concentrics and KNOW you'll get proper carburation.

Just make sure to open the float bowls and blast out any residual manufacturing debris before installing them. Place the slide needle clips in the middle position, and you have then eliminated the entire carburation aspect of final tuning, with virtual absolute certainty.

 

[grandpaul]

Thanks, Rudie, for sharing your experienced view. Again, I learned something new .

There are multimeters that have the capability to test diodes and capacitors (I used one at my job for over 10 years), but they are not inexpensive. They would cost as much as the battery-free kit Sundance was looking at.

I had a REALLY nice capacitor tester like a small rigid briefcase, when I had my own A/C business.

It had one feature that was worth every penny. It had the ability to connect to an A/C compressor that had been diagnosed as "stuck", and could "rock" the rotor back and forth, freeing it up. More than half the time, it would give the compressor another season of adequate cooling function. Sometimes it would JUST get the homeowner thru the end of summer. But, to be able to put off a $500 job by paying a $100 service charge was well worth it! (If/when it DIDN'T work, I only charged $27.50)

I wish I had that thing now, I'd like to rock the compressor on our RV, I'll bet I could get it running again...

 

[sikatri]

I missed that they were not original. Good advice above. It’s not worth fooling around with then.

 

[speedrattle]

if originality is not an issue, these machines run very well with VM or TM mikuni carbs.

about a hundred bucks each, you can get them approximately prejetted in kits.

VM mikunis were used on triumph flat trackers in the1970s, so tbey re as vintage as lots of original amals

 

[Sundance]

The Monoblocs the OP has are not original to the engine the OP has.


Ime, they are awful.

To be clear, "battery free" reg/rec replace the battery with an internal capacitor. If this is such a great idea, which modern vehicle has reg/rec with a capacitor (with or without a battery for "insurance")? Also, the latter claim is dubious, it might depend on the type of capacitor, but certainly some capacitor types when faulty will drain any connected battery.

Before 68, Triumph (and other British makers) fitted the Lucas battery free system to a few models. US legislators effectively outlawed battery free systems on new bikes made after 1967 by mandating the rear light had to remain on even if the engine stopped.

You posted earlier you are planning to fit an electronic ignition. E.i. made points, condensers (capacitors) and mechanical auto advance obsolete within two or three years of battery free being made obsolete ... more than half a century ago ...

With the exception of a few small capacity engines, for at least the last four decades, engines in road vehicles have had 3-phase alternators simply charging a battery, which powers electronic ignition. It is a reliable system. Afaict there is not a 3-phase reg/rec with a capacitor (for battery free) so you would limit any alternator upgrade to available single phase types.

I appreciate batteries do fail, but so do capacitors. Testing a battery to discover if it is failing is easy - if no local auto electrician/battery shop, numerous inexpensive testers, and new batteries, are available on the internet. I am sure capacitor testing/testers are available; as widely as battery testing? When a battery free capacitor fails, cost (money and time) of sourcing a new one?

Being that this is already a non-original mix-n-match bike, I'd go with new Premier Concentrics and KNOW you'll get proper carburation.

Just make sure to open the float bowls and blast out any residual manufacturing debris before installing them. Place the slide needle clips in the middle position, and you have then eliminated the entire carburation aspect of final tuning, with virtual absolute certainty.

OK, considering everything, including the cost of all the parts I need to rebuild the old monobloc Amals, it seems going with new is the smarted way to go. I appreciate your recommendation to go with the Amal premiers and am looking into that seriously. Thanks!

 

[Sundance]

if originality is not an issue, these machines run very well with VM or TM mikuni carbs.

about a hundred bucks each, you can get them approximately prejetted in kits.

VM mikunis were used on triumph flat trackers in the1970s, so tbey re as vintage as lots of original amals

I have taken a look at the Mikunis on their site. I have absolutely no idea of how to compare the Amals and Mikunis ( as I have not experience with this). Originality is not one of my priorities on this project, mainly ease of gettin git done and reliability afterwards.

 

[speedrattle]

I have taken a look at the Mikunis on their site. I have absolutely no idea of how to compare the Amals and Mikunis ( as I have not experience with this). Originality is not one of my priorities on this project, mainly ease of gettin git done and reliability afterwards.

theyre very similar in design and function to the amal mk1 and mk2 concentrics, but are a better carb, imo. amal and mikuni were closely affiliated starting in the 1930s, and i have been told tbat the VM mikuni was designed in japan by amal engineers, after tbeir ideas were nixed as too expensive back in britain. they are very efficient, clean running carburetors.

MAP has sold complete pre-jetted VM kits for years

http://www.mapcycle.com/categories/...le-64-68-32mm-mikuni-kit.html#collateral-tabs
theses are large carbs, but i believe they will still fit with a stock sidecover and oil tank. i use stock amal cables and tbrottle pieces, unmodified.

the flat slide TM mikuni carbs are arguably a better instrument than tbe VM. i have ridden a T140 with them and i was very impressed. ive never used them because i already have boxes of VM jets needles and slides, so i have been sticking with what i know.

i ran 32mm VMs for years in a T120, then switched to 34s. if your machine has some port work to go with the larger automobile valves, the 34 might give a bit more top end. but 32s would work fine, like paul said. ive run 26mm VMs in a T150, and the resukts there were good too.

just another option. you can buy all tbe vsrious components separately and save a little money, but the MAP kits are pretty much set and forget

 

[Sundance]

theyre very similar in design and function to the amal mk1 and mk2 concentrics, but are a better carb, imo. amal and mikuni were closely affiliated starting in the 1930s, and i have been told tbat the VM mikuni was designed in japan by amal engineers, after tbeir ideas were nixed as too expensive back in britain. they are very efficient, clean running carburetors.

MAP has sold complete pre-jetted VM kits for years

http://www.mapcycle.com/categories/...le-64-68-32mm-mikuni-kit.html#collateral-tabs
theses are large carbs, but i believe they will still fit with a stock sidecover and oil tank. i use stock amal cables and tbrottle pieces, unmodified.

the flat slide TM mikuni carbs are arguably a better instrument than tbe VM. i have ridden a T140 with them and i was very impressed. ive never used them because i already have boxes of VM jets needles and slides, so i have been sticking with what i know.

i ran 32mm VMs for years in a T120, then switched to 34s. if your machine has some port work to go with the larger automobile valves, the 34 might give a bit more top end. but 32s would work fine, like paul said. ive run 26mm VMs in a T150, and the resukts there were good too.

just another option. you can buy all tbe vsrious components separately and save a little money, but the MAP kits are pretty much set and forget

I have been taking a look at the MAP catalogue and am amazed at all they have for Triumphs. I like the idea of their kits. I got in touch with them to try to determine which kit, if I were to go that direction, I would need. Apparently there was a change in the manifold sometime in 1968/69 where it was changed from 20 tpi early to 16 tpi late. So next step is measuring the tpi on the manifold.

 

[Sundance]

OK, on the Triumph manifold tpi change, apparently that happened sometime in 1968 from 20 tpi to 16 tpi. Since me engine, according to the serial number, is a 1969 engine, I suppose I can assume it has a manifold with 16 tpi? I'm wondering if any members out there have some experience with this issue? Thanks!

 

[speedrattle]

lol

yes, in a perfect world you could assume that. but i am afraid your world is not perfect in that way.

the switch from 20 to 16 TPI took place at the factory somewhere in mid 1968. but any 9-bolt 650 triumph head from 1963 through 72 and even some 73 models will bolt onto your motor. you already know that your machine has been mixed, matched, and modified. it may have the original head or it may have one from some other year.

so, the easy solution is to look. undo the big lock nut on one of the carb flanges, and then unscrew it-- gently-- and count the threads. if you have a thread gauge, its easy, else 16 and 20 are different enough that you can use a little ruler and count.

you will need to stay aware of this, since triumph motors share major parts over many years. i have a road race motor that i am building with 1967 inner cases, gearbox, timing, and primary cover castings from somewhere, a 1970 transmission, crankshaft, and primary drive, a 1969 cylinder head, who knows from where rocker boxes, and so on. especially when you have a modified motor, you just have to look.

this is actually an advantage, because it makes used parts easier to source.

ive been buying stuff from MAP for 40 years. he keeps wanting to retire, but hasn't yet. they are excellent sources of both parts and information.

 

[Sundance]

lol

yes, in a perfect world you could assume that. but i am afraid your world is not perfect in that way.

the switch from 20 to 16 TPI took place at the factory somewhere in mid 1968. but any 9-bolt 650 triumph head from 1963 through 72 and even some 73 models will bolt onto your motor. you already know that your machine has been mixed, matched, and modified. it may have the original head or it may have one from some other year.

so, the easy solution is to look. undo the big lock nut on one of the carb flanges, and then unscrew it-- gently-- and count the threads. if you have a thread gauge, its easy, else 16 and 20 are different enough that you can use a little ruler and count.

you will need to stay aware of this, since triumph motors share major parts over many years. i have a road race motor that i am building with 1967 inner cases, gearbox, timing, and primary cover castings from somewhere, a 1970 transmission, crankshaft, and primary drive, a 1969 cylinder head, who knows from where rocker boxes, and so on. especially when you have a modified motor, you just have to look.

this is actually an advantage, because it makes used parts easier to source.

Ok, this makes a lot of sense. So when one crosses the border into this "Old Triumph Milieu," assume nothing except that everything should be measured, checked, counted, and checked again, etc., it is just part of the game. Quite amazing in one way, as modern vehicle production has much less flexibility.

 

[Sundance]

The Monoblocs the OP has are not original to the engine the OP has.


Ime, they are awful.

To be clear, "battery free" reg/rec replace the battery with an internal capacitor. If this is such a great idea, which modern vehicle has reg/rec with a capacitor (with or without a battery for "insurance")? Also, the latter claim is dubious, it might depend on the type of capacitor, but certainly some capacitor types when faulty will drain any connected battery.

Before 68, Triumph (and other British makers) fitted the Lucas battery free system to a few models. US legislators effectively outlawed battery free systems on new bikes made after 1967 by mandating the rear light had to remain on even if the engine stopped.

You posted earlier you are planning to fit an electronic ignition. E.i. made points, condensers (capacitors) and mechanical auto advance obsolete within two or three years of battery free being made obsolete ... more than half a century ago ...

With the exception of a few small capacity engines, for at least the last four decades, engines in road vehicles have had 3-phase alternators simply charging a battery, which powers electronic ignition. It is a reliable system. Afaict there is not a 3-phase reg/rec with a capacitor (for battery free) so you would limit any alternator upgrade to available single phase types.

I appreciate batteries do fail, but so do capacitors. Testing a battery to discover if it is failing is easy - if no local auto electrician/battery shop, numerous inexpensive testers, and new batteries, are available on the internet. I am sure capacitor testing/testers are available; as widely as battery testing? When a battery free capacitor fails, cost (money and time) of sourcing a new one?

Rudi, do you have advice on a vendor(s) for wire to construct a harness? Thanks.

 

[speedrattle]

Ok, this makes a lot of sense. So when one crosses the border into this "Old Triumph Milieu," assume nothing except that everything should be measured, checked, counted, and checked again, etc., it is just part of the game. Quite amazing in one way, as modern vehicle production has much less flexibility.

think of them as the small block chevrolet of two wheels

 

[Greyfell]

If you want all stock electrical parts, you can buy a ready made high quality 67 harness (for the ignition switch, Zener diode positions and rotary light switch) from British Wiring.

Otoh, if you would like to build the harness - especially if you intend to replace separate rectifier and Zener with a combined regulator/rectifier and/or points, auto-advance unit, condensers with electronic ignition - the original wiring diagram is on Triumph workshop manual page 211 (H32), British Wiring sells all the correct wire colours and terminal types, the tools to crimp and join the common bullet terminals (I guess he can recommend a US source for a spade terminal crimping tool).

Here is Rudie's suggestion (from earlier in this thread) for replacement wiring harness.

 

[Sundance]

Here is Rudie's suggestion (from earlier in this thread) for replacement wiring harness.

Oh yes, pardon my laziness in attempting to recall this. I will take a look at British Wiring. Thank you.

 

[speedrattle]

hey

another thing

remember that paul earlier suggested new amal premier carbs. thats a good option. the problems with the old mark1 concentrics were mostly fixed with the premiers. removeable pilot, better slide material, upgraded float system. whar people didnt like about the first ones mostly got fixed.

think about those as well.