I found out the previous owner rode it until 1984, then because of going off to school and life it went into storage and some moves. During one move the movers required the carbs be taken off to insure there was not gas in the engine. So, apparently, it was running up to 1984 without any problem. So I will need to determine what kind of corrosion could have accumulated during the time it was stored.
1967/1969 Bonnie Rebuild Desert Sled Project
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Thanks for this info. A bit over my head at this point so I am hoping to learn as I go along with this project. I have some hand written notes on this bike for timing, etc. I'll post a photo of it in case you can decrypt it for me.
Misspent youth ... and adulthood ... far too much time spent with old Triumphs ...
Digressing slightly, if you do not have a set already, useful will be digital calipers and a set of screwpitch gauges:-
. Digital calipers are just better than a ruler for measuring things, particularly large diameters. I can pick up good ones in a couple of chain supermarkets for ten pounds so an educated guess says you can probably get similar quality for $10.
. If you Google "screwpitch gauges", what should come up is sets of small pieces held together rather like feeler gauges, each piece stamped with a number and having one serrated edge. The idea is: you put the serrations lengthways along a bolt's or into a nut's thread; when a given piece's serrations fit exactly in the thread, the number on the piece tells you either the "tpi" - threads or turns per inch - of an inch thread or the "pitch" - distance between adjacent peaks or troughs - of a metric thread. Any set of screwpitch gauges should not be expensive but, if you can afford a set that includes 19 tpi, 27 tpi and metric pitches, more useful.
. Even if your bike was not a mixture of 67 and 69 onwards parts, it would still have a mixture of threadforms - American Unified and British Standard (what many of your countrymen incorrectly call "Whitworth", there are hardly any actual Whitworth threads on your bike). E.g. while I can guess at the forks being 69 on, I advise you to confirm both by measuring between the leg centres and by using screwpitch gauges to check the thread of the bolts at the bottom of the sliders - 5/16"-24 (UNF) = 69 on, 5/16"-26 (British Standard Cycle) = pre 69.
Possibly the original 67 forks, certainly the top yoke with "H2100" cast is pre 69. Triumph changed the fork internals from 68, the damping was better; if the fitted forks are 69 on, could be whoever built your bike had a complete 69 bike for the engine and decided to fit the complete 69 front end also, for the better brake and forks damping?
Headlight shell is late 67 - 66 and early 67 did not have idiot lights, one idiot light was added during 67, then the second one, 68 the lights switch was changed to a 3-position lever switch.
Your headlight shell/switch matches the sidepanel - the single (blanked off) hole in the sidepanel was originally for the key operated ignition switch. The ignition switch is simple on/off, the lights switch positions are all off/pilot+tail/head+tail (pilot off).
67 idiot lights were originally red and green, one for "ignition on", the other was headlamp main beam warning. However, your 69 engine has an oil pressure switch (in the front edge of the triangular timing cover; 69 on, that was connected to the red idiot light - ignition on, red light illuminates, start engine, red light should extinguish immediately - red light illuminates when ignition is turned on both because there is not any oil pressure and to show the bulb is working, red light should extinguish with engine start because oil pressure should open the switch.
Also in the sidepanel photo, the rear brake pedal is higher than it should be because it is resting against the underside of the footrest. In fact, the lever position can be adjusted by a bolt and locknut that screw into a threaded hole in the footrest casting, the small tab on the underside of the brake lever then rests against the bolt head. However, when you get to this, you might find the thread in the footrest hole is stripped, but possibly only near the entrance to the hole. Reason for this is Triumph supplied a bolt less than an inch long,
much too short for where most human beings' left feet want to be when just sitting on the bike; result was the bolt ended up with only about two threads in the footrest, which stripped when the locknut was tightened ... I spend a few minutes with bolts of different lengths that both set the pedal height and use all the footrest thread then lock the selected bolt with a locknut; when it is done, it is done.Wiring is in really poor shape; the p.o. might have (conveniently?) forgotten but my guess is this is why the bike was not ridden much after the rebuild - the hardware store blue insulated terminals and blue wires to the coils say someone has had a go at 'rewiring', educated guess unsuccessfully.
Imho, you maybe need to reassess how you are going to revive this bike?
In addition to others' warnings about the potential state of the inside of the engine, as it is a 4-stroke 360-degree parallel twin, even if one cylinder is on compression both valves closed, the other is on exhaust/inlet, both valves open ... And that is best case, could be the engine has been sitting for decades with one valve in each cylinder open ...
Considering the expense of new carbs to "see if I can get it running" - with the electrics in this state and valves/cylinders in an unknown state - is not sensible? If you absolutely must "see if I can get it running" and you are good enough with electrics you can throw away what is there and jury rig a battery just to supply coils and points, maybe next a cheap borescope that works with a smartphone to inspect the inside of the head and cylinders; if all valve stems and cylinder bores are not knackered with rust, then some Berrymans Chemdip to clean up the existing carb parts? Then "see if I can get it running"?
Or maybe just bite the bullet, accept the bike has spent too much time stored badly and neglected, start the stripdown and parts shopping list, fix all the nasties, do the rebuild?
On the electrics in the above photo:-
. The circular-ish black component bottom left with yellow and red wires is the rectifier, likely original.
. If original rectifier, original electrics were 'positive ground'.
. The two yellow wires connected to rectifier terminals, if those wires go into the primary chaincase, they are to the alternator stator, indicate an aftermarket replacement stator.
. The right angled plate top left around the battery carrier is the original Zener diode heatsink. If you have not come across this before, Zener diode regulated the DC electrical system, that was supplied by the alternator through the rectifier. Zener works by turning excess alternator current - generated but not consumed by ignition, lighting, battery charging - into heat, therefore the plate for a heatsink. The ring terminal on the red wire by the plate might be obscuring the Zener from the camera?
The shock absorber on the right and the ones fitted to the bike are either aftermarket or from a non-British bike.
The tank badges are 66 to 68, probably the bike's originals? So the tank could be the bike's original, the threaded holes in the tank for the badge screws filled in before the repaint and "Triumph" transfers. If you find the holes and want to clean out the filler, the thread is "2BA" = #2 British Association (for the Advancement of Science
) - looks very like 10-32 and M5 (5mm) but is not - 2BA is smaller diameter and different tpi/pitch.The chromed H shaped bracket is for mounting the speedo and tacho. The holes towards its left edge are larger diameter than the 1/4"-28 mounting bolts that pass through and screw into the top yoke lugs because the bracket holes are for Metalastik bushes - steel outer and centre sleeves with rubber in between, to isolate the speedo and tacho from vibration. Aside, because of this, when you rebuild the bike fully, the speedo and tacho bulbs need a 'ground' wire from the bracket to other 'ground' wires inside the headlight shell and back to the battery 'ground' terminal.
The two chromed "J" shaped parts are correct seat hinges for a 67 frame. If your bike has different seat hinges fitted (bent triangular plates? = later), the correct seat hinges work better - seat only opens until the vertical of the "J" is horizontal on the top of the frame tube.
The later hinges need an additional check wire attached between the seat pan and one of the battery carrier/oil tank bolts ... which has not been fitted if the small piece of silver gaffer tape on the left hand side of the seat cover above the shock bolt is covering a hole in the seat cover ...?In addition to the seat hinges, the black-topped plunger with a spring and split pin originally fitted through a bracket on the frame tube just to the rear of the oil tank, the end of the plunger fitted though a hole in a tab from the seat pan. The seat cover is aftermarket; as the original hinges and and securing plunger are off the bike in this photo, is the complete seat aftermarket?
From the other photos, just fyi many small parts have been non-standard chromed, plated or painted silver - rear license plate brackets, rear brake plate, torque arm and lever, seat hinges, top yoke (all were black originally), front hub cover (chromed originally).
Finally here, you could help me out ...:-... do these coils have any markings; I am particularly wondering if they are original Siba coils?
Rudi,Misspent youth ... and adulthood ... far too much time spent with old Triumphs ...
Digressing slightly, if you do not have a set already, useful will be digital calipers and a set of screwpitch gauges:-
. Digital calipers are just better than a ruler for measuring things, particularly large diameters. I can pick up good ones in a couple of chain supermarkets for ten pounds so an educated guess says you can probably get similar quality for $10.
. If you Google "screwpitch gauges", what should come up is sets of small pieces held together rather like feeler gauges, each piece stamped with a number and having one serrated edge. The idea is: you put the serrations lengthways along a bolt's or into a nut's thread; when a given piece's serrations fit exactly in the thread, the number on the piece tells you either the "tpi" - threads or turns per inch - of an inch thread or the "pitch" - distance between adjacent peaks or troughs - of a metric thread. Any set of screwpitch gauges should not be expensive but, if you can afford a set that includes 19 tpi, 27 tpi and metric pitches, more useful.
. Even if your bike was not a mixture of 67 and 69 onwards parts, it would still have a mixture of threadforms - American Unified and British Standard (what many of your countrymen incorrectly call "Whitworth", there are hardly any actual Whitworth threads on your bike). E.g. while I can guess at the forks being 69 on, I advise you to confirm both by measuring between the leg centres and by using screwpitch gauges to check the thread of the bolts at the bottom of the sliders - 5/16"-24 (UNF) = 69 on, 5/16"-26 (British Standard Cycle) = pre 69.
Possibly the original 67 forks, certainly the top yoke with "H2100" cast is pre 69. Triumph changed the fork internals from 68, the damping was better; if the fitted forks are 69 on, could be whoever built your bike had a complete 69 bike for the engine and decided to fit the complete 69 front end also, for the better brake and forks damping?
Headlight shell is late 67 - 66 and early 67 did not have idiot lights, one idiot light was added during 67, then the second one, 68 the lights switch was changed to a 3-position lever switch.
Your headlight shell/switch matches the sidepanel - the single (blanked off) hole in the sidepanel was originally for the key operated ignition switch. The ignition switch is simple on/off, the lights switch positions are all off/pilot+tail/head+tail (pilot off).
67 idiot lights were originally red and green, one for "ignition on", the other was headlamp main beam warning. However, your 69 engine has an oil pressure switch (in the front edge of the triangular timing cover; 69 on, that was connected to the red idiot light - ignition on, red light illuminates, start engine, red light should extinguish immediately - red light illuminates when ignition is turned on both because there is not any oil pressure and to show the bulb is working, red light should extinguish with engine start because oil pressure should open the switch.
Also in the sidepanel photo, the rear brake pedal is higher than it should be because it is resting against the underside of the footrest. In fact, the lever position can be adjusted by a bolt and locknut that screw into a threaded hole in the footrest casting, the small tab on the underside of the brake lever then rests against the bolt head. However, when you get to this, you might find the thread in the footrest hole is stripped, but possibly only near the entrance to the hole. Reason for this is Triumph supplied a bolt less than an inch long,
Wiring is in really poor shape; the p.o. might have (conveniently?) forgotten but my guess is this is why the bike was not ridden much after the rebuild - the hardware store blue insulated terminals and blue wires to the coils say someone has had a go at 'rewiring', educated guess unsuccessfully.
Imho, you maybe need to reassess how you are going to revive this bike?
In addition to others' warnings about the potential state of the inside of the engine, as it is a 4-stroke 360-degree parallel twin, even if one cylinder is on compression both valves closed, the other is on exhaust/inlet, both valves open ... And that is best case, could be the engine has been sitting for decades with one valve in each cylinder open ...
Considering the expense of new carbs to "see if I can get it running" - with the electrics in this state and valves/cylinders in an unknown state - is not sensible? If you absolutely must "see if I can get it running" and you are good enough with electrics you can throw away what is there and jury rig a battery just to supply coils and points, maybe next a cheap borescope that works with a smartphone to inspect the inside of the head and cylinders; if all valve stems and cylinder bores are not knackered with rust, then some Berrymans Chemdip to clean up the existing carb parts? Then "see if I can get it running"?
Or maybe just bite the bullet, accept the bike has spent too much time stored badly and neglected, start the stripdown and parts shopping list, fix all the nasties, do the rebuild?
On the electrics in the above photo:-
. The circular-ish black component bottom left with yellow and red wires is the rectifier, likely original.
. If original rectifier, original electrics were 'positive ground'.
. The two yellow wires connected to rectifier terminals, if those wires go into the primary chaincase, they are to the alternator stator, indicate an aftermarket replacement stator.
. The right angled plate top left around the battery carrier is the original Zener diode heatsink. If you have not come across this before, Zener diode regulated the DC electrical system, that was supplied by the alternator through the rectifier. Zener works by turning excess alternator current - generated but not consumed by ignition, lighting, battery charging - into heat, therefore the plate for a heatsink. The ring terminal on the red wire by the plate might be obscuring the Zener from the camera?
The shock absorber on the right and the ones fitted to the bike are either aftermarket or from a non-British bike.
The tank badges are 66 to 68, probably the bike's originals? So the tank could be the bike's original, the threaded holes in the tank for the badge screws filled in before the repaint and "Triumph" transfers. If you find the holes and want to clean out the filler, the thread is "2BA" = #2 British Association (for the Advancement of Science
The chromed H shaped bracket is for mounting the speedo and tacho. The holes towards its left edge are larger diameter than the 1/4"-28 mounting bolts that pass through and screw into the top yoke lugs because the bracket holes are for Metalastik bushes - steel outer and centre sleeves with rubber in between, to isolate the speedo and tacho from vibration. Aside, because of this, when you rebuild the bike fully, the speedo and tacho bulbs need a 'ground' wire from the bracket to other 'ground' wires inside the headlight shell and back to the battery 'ground' terminal.
The two chromed "J" shaped parts are correct seat hinges for a 67 frame. If your bike has different seat hinges fitted (bent triangular plates? = later), the correct seat hinges work better - seat only opens until the vertical of the "J" is horizontal on the top of the frame tube.
In addition to the seat hinges, the black-topped plunger with a spring and split pin originally fitted through a bracket on the frame tube just to the rear of the oil tank, the end of the plunger fitted though a hole in a tab from the seat pan. The seat cover is aftermarket; as the original hinges and and securing plunger are off the bike in this photo, is the complete seat aftermarket?
From the other photos, just fyi many small parts have been non-standard chromed, plated or painted silver - rear license plate brackets, rear brake plate, torque arm and lever, seat hinges, top yoke (all were black originally), front hub cover (chromed originally).
... do these coils have any markings; I am particularly wondering if they are original Siba coils?
Reading your fine appraisal is a bit like a Master Class on Vintage Triumph Motorcycles! I will need some time to digest it all - and I will take the time.
I am re-thinking my ambition to try to get it started. Your comments, along with my closer inspection of the engine and seeing some corrosion where it could be troublesome, and some seeming mismatched fasteners have got me on the strong side of deciding to take it all apart. Your appraisal of the wiring is also helpful in the matter, so probably best to get it right to begin with. I've some books and found some on-line videos about how to proceed with this that seem pretty good so I'll be starting that soon.
I've an old, non-digital caliper, so will be shopping for a new digital one along with the screwpitch gauges - which I understand will be essential for the rebuild and figuring out what fasteners I may need.
On the coils, I'm including a few closer photos for you in case you can determine if they are originals.
And Thank You.
The "32000" moulded by the terminals is listed in the contemporary Triumph parts books for Siba coils, any "Siba" marking is probably hidden under the clamps? If so, they are likely original to the 67 frame; they were fitted 66-69 to most US market twins (and early triples) but 67 was the last year the condensers were mounted as in your photos; 68 onwards they were enclosed in a moulded rubber cover and hung under the front tank bracket.
Fwiw, even if you find those coils do not work, do not throw them away? They are so rare (those are the first I can recall seeing), they are valuable as a reference.
If you want/have to replace them, you will need 70 onwards Lucas or pattern coils; the Lucas "MA" coils illustrated and listed with Sibas in 66-69 parts books have a larger diameter and do not fit in the cutaways under US market fuel tanks (except specifically TR6R tanks).
I am good at spending other people's money ...
If you are happy using that caliper, ignore my digital suggestion.If you want all stock electrical parts, you can buy a ready made high quality 67 harness (for the ignition switch, Zener diode positions and rotary light switch) from British Wiring.
Otoh, if you would like to build the harness - especially if you intend to replace separate rectifier and Zener with a combined regulator/rectifier and/or points, auto-advance unit, condensers with electronic ignition - the original wiring diagram is on Triumph workshop manual page 211 (H32), British Wiring sells all the correct wire colours and terminal types, the tools to crimp and join the common bullet terminals (I guess he can recommend a US source for a spade terminal crimping tool).
One anomaly in the online Triumph 650 workshop manual is it does not have any wiring diagrams after 68, so even the 'latest' diagram does not show an oil pressure switch. However, 350/500 twins' wiring was identical to 650, the 350/500 workshop manual shows the switch and wiring in the diagrams in the "Supplement" - pages 246/7 (HH4/5) = 69.
Thank you but, as I have written about the Siba ignition coils, there is much I do not know. I was simply lucky to have become interested in British-made motorcycles when they were still being built and, although many of the marques and factories had gone even then, many ex-employees, dealers and knowledgeable others were around for many years after, willing to talk and pass on information for free.
Rudi,The "32000" moulded by the terminals is listed in the contemporary Triumph parts books for Siba coils, any "Siba" marking is probably hidden under the clamps? If so, they are likely original to the 67 frame; they were fitted 66-69 to most US market twins (and early triples) but 67 was the last year the condensers were mounted as in your photos; 68 onwards they were enclosed in a moulded rubber cover and hung under the front tank bracket.
Fwiw, even if you find those coils do not work, do not throw them away? They are so rare (those are the first I can recall seeing), they are valuable as a reference.
If you want/have to replace them, you will need 70 onwards Lucas or pattern coils; the Lucas "MA" coils illustrated and listed with Sibas in 66-69 parts books have a larger diameter and do not fit in the cutaways under US market fuel tanks (except specifically TR6R tanks).
I am good at spending other people's money ...
If you want all stock electrical parts, you can buy a ready made high quality 67 harness (for the ignition switch, Zener diode positions and rotary light switch) from British Wiring.
Otoh, if you would like to build the harness - especially if you intend to replace separate rectifier and Zener with a combined regulator/rectifier and/or points, auto-advance unit, condensers with electronic ignition - the original wiring diagram is on Triumph workshop manual page 211 (H32), British Wiring sells all the correct wire colours and terminal types, the tools to crimp and join the common bullet terminals (I guess he can recommend a US source for a spade terminal crimping tool).
One anomaly in the online Triumph 650 workshop manual is it does not have any wiring diagrams after 68, so even the 'latest' diagram does not show an oil pressure switch. However, 350/500 twins' wiring was identical to 650, the 350/500 workshop manual shows the switch and wiring in the diagrams in the "Supplement" - pages 246/7 (HH4/5) = 69.
Thank you but, as I have written about the Siba ignition coils, there is much I do not know. I was simply lucky to have become interested in British-made motorcycles when they were still being built and, although many of the marques and factories had gone even then, many ex-employees, dealers and knowledgeable others were around for many years after, willing to talk and pass on information for free.
Thanks again for the continuing Master Class, no matter how your youth was misspent. I was most likely going to change to an electronic ignition system, and will then likely replace a lot of the old electronics and wiring. I’ll keep the coils - in the photos I can clearly see the Siba logos. I’ll probably be doing a non-standard wiring as I may use a different kind of headlamp fixture is I can make it that far. I’ve got a lot to learn so this will be a slow progression. Thanks and cheers!
speedrattle
Well-Known Member
thats an interesting camshaft setup. cams for a triumph designed for street use will have about 0.322 lift and 272 degrees duration. yours has a stock duration, which means that the power band will be more or less at the same rpm as stock, but has higher lift-- 0.352 compared to 0.322 for a stock street cam. this will bump the power up throughout the rpm range.
your intake lobe centers are stock, at 100, but the exhaust is 4 degrees retarded, at 104. people say that this increases low end at the expense of high, but my own experience is the opposite. i run my race bike with lobe centers of 106/109, rather than 100/100, and its got lots of top end.
what you appear to have is an aftermarket cam with high lift and stock duration, designed for hot street. then the owner also retarded the exhaust for additional high end. normally hot cams will open the intake earlier, so i don't understand the later intake opening, but i am not a cam person, and its mostly voodoo to me.
the proof is in the pudding. run it and see what it does. if the bottom end is a bit soft, you can advance the exhaust cam a few degrees-- check piston clearance-- and see if it behaves more to your liking. i suspect it won't, but you never know until you test.
0.010/0.010 valve clearances might seem alarmingly higher than the stock 0.002/0.004, but that;'s normal for an aftermarket cam. expect the valves to be noisy and just smile when other riders try to tell you something is wrong.
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speedrattle
Well-Known Member
the receipts you list show a get-it-running barn find. two used wheels, used pipes, used gearbox cover, new clutch and primary chain, oil pump gasket and so on. no rings, no rod bearings, no pistons, no crank or gearbox bearings, no head work, some new electrical stuff.
it appears they took a non-runner and did whatever it took to made it go, but didn't split the cases to look inside the motor. nothing wrong with that, except that inside the crankshaft is an old-fashioned centrifugal sludge tube to clean out particles from the oil, back from before there were chemical detergents to keep stuff in suspension. if that is clogged up, it will hinder oil flow to the connecting rod bearings. but it could be clean, and if the machine was running when it was parked, the sludge tube was apparently okay then, and won't get worse by sitting.
if it were mine, i would get it running and go for it.
the camshafts still appear a puzzle. whoever installed them and retarded the exhaust four degrees may have done some other stuff while he was in there. the motor may have been rebuilt at that time. you will eventually take this motor apart again, because that is the way of the world. when you do, watch out for other hot-rod surprises in it.
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speedrattle
Well-Known Member
the receipts also list 16 hours of labour.
at US$25/hour. i wish that were still the case..
anyway, thats enough time to take a non-runner, replace the rotted wheels and pipes, the rusted clutch, alternator, and outer gearbox stuff from while it was sitting with the covers off, tune it and make it go. but its not enough time to split the cases and install camshafts and the routt kit. so that was apparently done earlier or later than the 1982 on the receipts.
when you eventually take it apart, measure the valve head diameters. 3/32-inch oversize intake valves were a popular hot-rod modification in the 1970s, and i'm curious as to whether the PO did anything to the top end when he dropped on the routt kit.
at US$25/hour. i wish that were still the case..
anyway, thats enough time to take a non-runner, replace the rotted wheels and pipes, the rusted clutch, alternator, and outer gearbox stuff from while it was sitting with the covers off, tune it and make it go. but its not enough time to split the cases and install camshafts and the routt kit. so that was apparently done earlier or later than the 1982 on the receipts.
when you eventually take it apart, measure the valve head diameters. 3/32-inch oversize intake valves were a popular hot-rod modification in the 1970s, and i'm curious as to whether the PO did anything to the top end when he dropped on the routt kit.
Speedrattle,the receipts also list 16 hours of labour.
at US$25/hour. i wish that were still the case..
anyway, thats enough time to take a non-runner, replace the rotted wheels and pipes, the rusted clutch, alternator, and outer gearbox stuff from while it was sitting with the covers off, tune it and make it go. but its not enough time to split the cases and install camshafts and the routt kit. so that was apparently done earlier or later than the 1982 on the receipts.
when you eventually take it apart, measure the valve head diameters. 3/32-inch oversize intake valves were a popular hot-rod modification in the 1970s, and i'm curious as to whether the PO did anything to the top end when he dropped on the routt kit.
Thanks for taking a look at the receipts and my notes. The previous owner told me the guy who built the engine put in valves from a car - not sure what that means but he said they were bigger valves. I'm still considering how to move ahead, take it all apart or rebuild the carbs, fix some of the wiring and see if I can get is started. I found some other receipts, one looks like the sludge trap might have been replaced at
speedrattle
Well-Known Member
sure
looks like its good to go, once you get it running.
i have no experience with sonny routs 800 kits, but i have a 750 morgo in my commuter and i like it a lot. the 800 may or may not increase your peak horsepower, depending on the valve sizes and any port work. but you will certainly gain some low and midrange over a stock 650.
its odd that he did the routt kit in april but all the rest of the motor work in november. the november receipts indicate a non-running bike. looks like he split the cases in april and did the crank, the routt kit, and the head, then took it somwhere else and had them finish the motor and do the chsssis.
whatever the history, youve got a machine that will likely be a strong street b8ke. i would clean up those monobloc carbs and see if theyre still oksy, but if theyre worn out i would put mikunis on the bike. but if the monoblocs work, then theyre historically interesting and certainly original. nothing wrong with them, and lots of people say theyre a better carb than the el cheapo concentrics that replaced them around 1967.
looks like its good to go, once you get it running.
i have no experience with sonny routs 800 kits, but i have a 750 morgo in my commuter and i like it a lot. the 800 may or may not increase your peak horsepower, depending on the valve sizes and any port work. but you will certainly gain some low and midrange over a stock 650.
its odd that he did the routt kit in april but all the rest of the motor work in november. the november receipts indicate a non-running bike. looks like he split the cases in april and did the crank, the routt kit, and the head, then took it somwhere else and had them finish the motor and do the chsssis.
whatever the history, youve got a machine that will likely be a strong street b8ke. i would clean up those monobloc carbs and see if theyre still oksy, but if theyre worn out i would put mikunis on the bike. but if the monoblocs work, then theyre historically interesting and certainly original. nothing wrong with them, and lots of people say theyre a better carb than the el cheapo concentrics that replaced them around 1967.
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Must have missed them, will look again.Very little in the way of original "electronics", the diodes in the rectifier and the Zener are about the only things that could qualify. Ime, none of the existing wiring in your photos is worth keeping, unless it cannot be disconnected from a component you are reusing - e.g. the yellow wires possibly to a pattern alternator stator.
Regrettably, you cannot reuse the coils with electronic ignition.
All for these bikes have a single switched output from the electronics box; multiple ignition coils must be connected 'in series' to the single switched output; as the DC electrics are nominally 12V, two ignition coils connected in series must be '6V' each.Depends what you mean. If you mean just change the headlamp bulb base and therefore the reflector/lens, that is wise if what the bike has now is original:-
... both the bulbs and reflectors/lenses are very poor.
The modern twin-filament headlamp bulb is:-
... the BPF reflector/lens on your bike now is standard automotive 7" diameter; because it is a standard automotive diameter, replacement reflector/lenses that take a P43t bulb are easy to find, will mount in your bike's headlamp rim with the existing wire clips.
Only things to watch are:-
. The reflector angle - some reflector/lens makers use a different angle from Lucas; fine if it is closer to vertical (e.g. Wipac) but, more horizontal, it can contact the underside of the Ammeter or light switch. If nothing else, ime you will not have a problem with the current "Lucas" reflector/lens for a P43t bulb.
. Unless you pay lots of money to a specialist bulb supplier, P43t bulbs are commonly 60W main/high, 55W dip/low, which draws about 1 Amp more than the original BPF bulb; this can be problem at low engine rpm with the original alternator:-
.. When you get to electrics, something you might want to consider is a later alternator stator (and probably new rotor) - 79 on, Triumph fitted Lucas-made 3-phase stators, they are the same physical size as the one inside your bike's primary chaincase. I have long fitted the higher output version (Lucas rating 14.5 Amps/180 Watts @ 5,000 rpm); these are available new but pattern from Wassell/Emgo.
.. Ime, the 'high output' 3-phase banishes any electrical supply problems even when forced to ride at low engine rpm for long periods.
That said, I also fit a pilot bulb with much higher power than standard (now an "Eagle Eye" 15W LED (cheap from Ebay) in place of the standard pilot bulb and holder) - "forced to ride at low engine rpm for long periods" is normally in town/city and therefore under streetlights at night, bright light in the pilot bulb position is normally great for being seen by other road users without dazzling them.Fwiw, if the only thing you change is the headlamp bulb, and therefore the reflector/lens, that can be accommodated in the standard wiring harness from British Wiring - there should be bullet terminals and snap connectors between the BPF bulb cap and the harness, Triumph fitted headlamps with the more common H4 plug from about mid 77, the plug's wires also connect to the harness with the same bullets and snap connectors.
That said, I would advise a plug like this:-
... reason is, lens/reflector with a P43t bulb, when fitted in the headlamp shell, the plug is right at the back of the shell; the other plug style - wires straight out - the back corner of the shell bends the wires very sharply.
Otoh, replacing rectifier and Zener with a combined reg./rec. and replacing points, a.a.u., condensers with e.i., building the harness yourself is wiser, otherwise too many unused connections that have to be found and taped.
Nevertheless, I advise using the wire colours in the workshop manual wiring diagram, not only are they easily available, they are a code; if you ever need electrical troubleshooting help, anyone familiar with old British vehicle electrics knows the code.Speedrattle, While I have some of the old receipts I'm not sure I have all. Here is why. I met the previous owner and his family and he is unfortunately experiencing memory loss which is now a chronic condition. Realizing the previous owner and I are of the same vintage prompted some reflection on my own "good" health.
I wonder if you have and advice on the carburetor rebuild for these monoblocs. As I said they are 389/95 Amals. The Amal company said I should use this kit to rebuild them- 389 Series Monobloc Major StayUp Repair Kit - The AMAL Carburetter Company - however the order form asks for me to select a main, needle and pilot jet option. Is this something I should do with reference to the carburetors I have now - assuming this is information I can get from disassembling the carburetors? Or is there some better way to decide this considering my engine and it's 800cc Routt kit? Thanks for any thoughts on this.
Rudie, thanks for this advice. Seems like building my own harness is the best idea. For a headlight I was thinking of replacing it with a new Hella headlight. I've seen this on some other vintage Triumphs made into "desert sled" type bikes and I've seen somewhere online there is a kit for this replacement. I will also want a tach and speedo and would want something relatively simple if that is possible. These are down the road a bit for me now I believe.
Very little in the way of original "electronics", the diodes in the rectifier and the Zener are about the only things that could qualify. Ime, none of the existing wiring in your photos is worth keeping, unless it cannot be disconnected from a component you are reusing - e.g. the yellow wires possibly to a pattern alternator stator.
Regrettably, you cannot reuse the coils with electronic ignition.
Depends what you mean. If you mean just change the headlamp bulb base and therefore the reflector/lens, that is wise if what the bike has now is original:-
... both the bulbs and reflectors/lenses are very poor.
The modern twin-filament headlamp bulb is:-
... the BPF reflector/lens on your bike now is standard automotive 7" diameter; because it is a standard automotive diameter, replacement reflector/lenses that take a P43t bulb are easy to find, will mount in your bike's headlamp rim with the existing wire clips.
Only things to watch are:-
. The reflector angle - some reflector/lens makers use a different angle from Lucas; fine if it is closer to vertical (e.g. Wipac) but, more horizontal, it can contact the underside of the Ammeter or light switch. If nothing else, ime you will not have a problem with the current "Lucas" reflector/lens for a P43t bulb.
. Unless you pay lots of money to a specialist bulb supplier, P43t bulbs are commonly 60W main/high, 55W dip/low, which draws about 1 Amp more than the original BPF bulb; this can be problem at low engine rpm with the original alternator:-
.. When you get to electrics, something you might want to consider is a later alternator stator (and probably new rotor) - 79 on, Triumph fitted Lucas-made 3-phase stators, they are the same physical size as the one inside your bike's primary chaincase. I have long fitted the higher output version (Lucas rating 14.5 Amps/180 Watts @ 5,000 rpm); these are available new but pattern from Wassell/Emgo.
.. Ime, the 'high output' 3-phase banishes any electrical supply problems even when forced to ride at low engine rpm for long periods.
Fwiw, if the only thing you change is the headlamp bulb, and therefore the reflector/lens, that can be accommodated in the standard wiring harness from British Wiring - there should be bullet terminals and snap connectors between the BPF bulb cap and the harness, Triumph fitted headlamps with the more common H4 plug from about mid 77, the plug's wires also connect to the harness with the same bullets and snap connectors.
That said, I would advise a plug like this:-
View attachment 50981
... reason is, lens/reflector with a P43t bulb, when fitted in the headlamp shell, the plug is right at the back of the shell; the other plug style - wires straight out - the back corner of the shell bends the wires very sharply.
Otoh, replacing rectifier and Zener with a combined reg./rec. and replacing points, a.a.u., condensers with e.i., building the harness yourself is wiser, otherwise too many unused connections that have to be found and taped.
Then you can also ensure thicker wire for wires common to several circuits (the wires connected to the two battery terminals), the standard harness's single fuse is connected to the battery 'ground' terminal (it is not in standard 68 on harnesses
) and consider additional fuses so something like a simple blown bulb does not bring the bike to a complete halt. Reg./rec. and e.i. should have their own fuses anyway.If you can find it again online, post a link?
I Googled "triumph hella headlamp", followed a few of the links, the OEM Hella fitted to Hinckley Triumphs seems
Simplest are probably the Emgo replicas of the original Smiths - speedo, tach, also available from parts vendors (the tachs might be in short supply right now, they are normally the same ~$60 as the speedo).
Both should have two studs on the back that should fit through matching holes in the chromed (originally black painted) "H" bracket in your "box of parts" photo in an earlier post. In turn, that bracket bolts to the threaded lugs on the front edge of the top yoke.
You will see cheaper speedos and tachos on Ebay "from India" but I have never used them.
The jets should have numbers on them. Take the main jet and pilot off and you should be able to order based on what it currently has. Since it ran as built before that would be a starting point.
Thanks Rudi. Great information for me. On the headlight there is the bike featured here - A Triumph TT special built for a top sound designer - that I believe was also somewhere on this site. In the narrative it states, "The bars are an original race set, and Hayden has installed a modified oil tank and a few period aftermarket accessories too. But under the ‘Lucas’ cover is a modern Hella 7-inch headlight. (“It’s nice to be able to see, and they don’t draw much power.”)" So anyway, I was hoping/thinking I might be able to do something similar eventually. OK on the wiring and speedo/tach information. I will be checking that out soon!Then you can also ensure thicker wire for wires common to several circuits (the wires connected to the two battery terminals), the standard harness's single fuse is connected to the battery 'ground' terminal (it is not in standard 68 on harnesses
If you can find it again online, post a link?
I Googled "triumph hella headlamp", followed a few of the links, the OEM Hella fitted to Hinckley Triumphs seems
Simplest are probably the Emgo replicas of the original Smiths - speedo, tach, also available from parts vendors (the tachs might be in short supply right now, they are normally the same ~$60 as the speedo).
Both should have two studs on the back that should fit through matching holes in the chromed (originally black painted) "H" bracket in your "box of parts" photo in an earlier post. In turn, that bracket bolts to the threaded lugs on the front edge of the top yoke.
You will see cheaper speedos and tachos on Ebay "from India" but I have never used them.
Sikatri, well thanks for this bit of information - since I haven't disassembled them yet. I would think this is the best starting point and I will now have to get to understand how these carbs actually work. Again, thanks!
They should be something like these. On these the size for the pilot is on top of the head and on the main at the side of the head. Yours might be slightly different, but they will be somewhere. They are sometimes hard to read.
speedrattle
Well-Known Member
hey sundance
good question. i am absolutely not any kind of authority on monoblocs, so my suggestions will be general. here's what was originally associated with the 1967 chassis you have:
the two carbs had #260 main jets, #106 needle jets, a Type D needle (standard), a #3 throttle valve cutaway, and a #25 pilot jet. i suspect that these may work just fine with your 800 cc motor, and in any event you should test them and see. main jets are numbered by orifice size- the bigger the number, the more fuel they can flow. needle jets are also sized by number, throttle valves have a higher number the leaner they are, and pilots get richer with number.
these may all work fine, but if anything were to change i would think that the increased engine capacity might require slightly richer jetting in several places. when you order the new bits. i would ask for the stock 260 main jets, but also get two more pairs going up--280 and 300, or maybe 270 and 280. you might never need them. the 106 needle jet and the standard D needle will very likely be fine-- you can adjust the needle up and down to richen or lean the mixture. there is a possibility that you might find the #3 throttle valve to be too lean, in which case you could try out a #2.5 with a smaller cutaway, but i wouldn't buy them in advance. finally, the #25 pilot jets might be lean, so i would add a pair of #30s to the lists.
but do ask burlen for their recommendations on the jet numbers. theyve been around these carbs for years, and theyve seen it all. tell em what you have, and they will know more than me for sure.
in total, i think you can probably tune it correctly if you have in hand the stock jetting and two numbers up in mains and one number up in the pilots. needle jets in amal concentric carbs are worthless after 10,000 miles or so-- the tapping from the needle wears them away. so i would also make sure you get two new 106 needle jets. the needles almost never wear out.
tuning them will be straightforward. all the different carburetor circuits come into play at different throttle settings/engine loads, so its pretty simple to tell which jets or adjustments need to be fiddled with by testing at constant throttle opening and load. amals are pretty easy to tune, in general, and i think the original 649 cc settings are going to be close..
one caution-- heavy loads at lean settings can cause the motor to overheat and detonate or melt a hole in your piston. an easy way to avoid this is to start testing with the too-rich jets and settings and work your way down to what runs best, rather than starting lean and running towards richer. when you get to where you are testing we should take stock of where you are and work through the procedure you will use to finalize the jetting.
good question. i am absolutely not any kind of authority on monoblocs, so my suggestions will be general. here's what was originally associated with the 1967 chassis you have:
the two carbs had #260 main jets, #106 needle jets, a Type D needle (standard), a #3 throttle valve cutaway, and a #25 pilot jet. i suspect that these may work just fine with your 800 cc motor, and in any event you should test them and see. main jets are numbered by orifice size- the bigger the number, the more fuel they can flow. needle jets are also sized by number, throttle valves have a higher number the leaner they are, and pilots get richer with number.
these may all work fine, but if anything were to change i would think that the increased engine capacity might require slightly richer jetting in several places. when you order the new bits. i would ask for the stock 260 main jets, but also get two more pairs going up--280 and 300, or maybe 270 and 280. you might never need them. the 106 needle jet and the standard D needle will very likely be fine-- you can adjust the needle up and down to richen or lean the mixture. there is a possibility that you might find the #3 throttle valve to be too lean, in which case you could try out a #2.5 with a smaller cutaway, but i wouldn't buy them in advance. finally, the #25 pilot jets might be lean, so i would add a pair of #30s to the lists.
but do ask burlen for their recommendations on the jet numbers. theyve been around these carbs for years, and theyve seen it all. tell em what you have, and they will know more than me for sure.
in total, i think you can probably tune it correctly if you have in hand the stock jetting and two numbers up in mains and one number up in the pilots. needle jets in amal concentric carbs are worthless after 10,000 miles or so-- the tapping from the needle wears them away. so i would also make sure you get two new 106 needle jets. the needles almost never wear out.
tuning them will be straightforward. all the different carburetor circuits come into play at different throttle settings/engine loads, so its pretty simple to tell which jets or adjustments need to be fiddled with by testing at constant throttle opening and load. amals are pretty easy to tune, in general, and i think the original 649 cc settings are going to be close..
one caution-- heavy loads at lean settings can cause the motor to overheat and detonate or melt a hole in your piston. an easy way to avoid this is to start testing with the too-rich jets and settings and work your way down to what runs best, rather than starting lean and running towards richer. when you get to where you are testing we should take stock of where you are and work through the procedure you will use to finalize the jetting.
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