Which Ignition Is This On My 1972 Bonnie

[Woollybandit]

I absolutely support that statement!

I wonder whether the new more powerful battery has put paid to the zener which might have been at the end of its life. Or the failure of the zener drained the tired old battery and finished it off for good.

Anyway, aren’t zener diodes expensive!!!

 

[Rudie]

@Rocky and @Woollybandit, I am pleased I can help.

unbolted the diode and hey presto the test bulb only comes on at key position left, right x1 & right x2.

The Zener was causing a short because it had failed and is connected across the battery, -ve connection is the Brown/Blue wire, +ve connection is through its mounting.

In case it was not absolutely clear in that "other forum" thread, you cannot use the bike without replacing the Zener. It primarily ensures DC does not rise above about 15V irrespective of the AC Volts; because the bike has electronic ignition, I would not risk even running the engine; without the regulation, even just blipping the throttle could send the unregulated Volts too high for the Rita.

The Zener's other function is, when the alternator is generating more than the DC electrics are using, the Zener converts excess generated Amps into heat (the reason it is bolted to one of the airboxes, which acts as a heatsink).

aren’t zener diodes expensive!

I do not replace with new Zeners; not only are they are expensive, they are collectively unreliable - some have been known to allow DC to rise to nearly 20V! - and difficult to test before connecting to the bike.

I prefer to fit the electronic combined regulator/rectifier I mentioned earlier, either Regulator Rectifier & 5 Way Male Plug For Honda CB250 CBR400 CBR600 900RR 1100XX | eBay, Tri-Spark (Australian dollars ) or Podtronics - "VR.10124/P" from TMS; there are numerous others but I would not use them.

Reg/rec are connected differently from the rectifier and Zener but it is not difficult; the other upside is, because the Brown/Blue wire connections for rectifier and Zener will not be required, any new replacement wire can be direct from battery -ve to the ignition switch.

All the reg/rec I have suggested are 3-phase whereas your bike's standard alternator is/was single phase. I always advise 3-phase reg/rec even on bikes with single phase alternators because: connection is not a problem; if an alternator upgrade is ever necessary or desired, ime a 3-phase alternator is the best, the reg/rec is present already.

As this thread has unintentionally turned into wiring modification, suppliers of wire, terminals and crimping tools - as well as Autosparks I linked with the larger earth wires snap connector, also Vehicle Wiring Products. I have used both for many years without any problems.

 

[Woollybandit]

The Zener was causing a short because it had failed and is connected across the battery, -ve connection is the Brown/Blue wire, +ve connection is through its mounting.

Thank god for fuses!
I have ordered a spade fuse and the replacement zener. I’m not one of the fanatical originalistas but the expensive zener is just easier for me to fit without blowing an equally expensive Rita box. I guess there are more good ones than bad.

 

[Rudie]

replacement zener
easier for me to fit
I guess there are more good ones than bad.

Enough have been tested to show there are many bad. You only need one bad Zener so the AB11 will need repairing. Luckily, the AB11 can be repaired, any other e.i. would require replacement.

When you have fitted the Zener, first time you can start the engine, have your meter connected across the battery, raise the rpm slowly while watching the meter. Volts should rise with rpm to 15V (assuming a well calibrated meter) probably around 3,500~4,000 rpm. Continue to increase the rpm, the meter should never indicate above 15V; if it does, the new Zener is faulty already.

Part of the reason they are so expensive is little or nothing else uses a 12A Zener, most motorcycles have used reg/rec for decades, electronics do use Zeners but with a much lower power capability. I suspect if Wassell required the Zener maker to test them properly and reject the faulty ones, ones for sale would be even more expensive. However, Wassell has never been strong on quality control, plus US retailers can get away with refusing to exchange even faulty electrical components.

Two other wiring checks:-

. One of your photos shows a yellow insulated ring terminal on one of the AB11 mountings. The other end of the wire in that terminal must be connected to the battery +ve terminal - nowhere else on the bike - and there must be good continuity between the connections. Rita uses the box casing to protect the electronics from Voltage spikes generated by other components, the case's connection to battery +ve is part of that protection.

. Mount the AB11 the other way up, so the wires are into the bottom of the box. As mounted in your photos, water landing on the wires can run down into the box.

 

[Woollybandit]

Was just on my way out to the workshop with the freshly delivered spade fuse and cable when I read the last posting.
The green/red wire from the AB11 lug goes to an earth bolt that also has a ring terminal in red that goes directly to the battery +ve.
Is that direct enough?

 

[Woollybandit]

When you have fitted the Zener, first time you can start the engine, have your meter connected across the battery, raise the rpm slowly while watching the meter. Volts should rise with rpm to 15V (assuming a well calibrated meter) probably around 3,500~4,000 rpm. Continue to increase the rpm, the meter should never indicate above 15V; if it does, the new Zener is faulty already

That’s a very useful paragraph there.
Thank you

 

[Rudie]

The green/red wire from the AB11 lug goes to an earth bolt that also has a ring terminal in red that goes directly to the battery +ve.
Is that direct enough?

Ime, no. When Meriden fitted AB11 as original equipment, the other end of the spike protection wire could be connected as close to the battery as the carrier. Did not protect the electronics.

The yellow insulated terminals are far too large for the wires used, the spike protection has been cobbled up from terminals and scraps of wire lying around.

If it fails to protect and the electronics are damaged, one symptom is sparks lost ...

 

[Woollybandit]

Ime, no. When Meriden fitted AB11 as original equipment, the other end of the spike protection wire could be connected as close to the battery as the carrier. Did not protect the electronics.

The yellow insulated terminals are far too large for the wires used, the spike protection has been cobbled up from terminals and scraps of wire lying around.

If it fails to protect and the electronics are damaged, one symptom is sparks lost ...

 

[Woollybandit]

Okey doke, it's only another 10 minutes fun!
Once it’s up and running it will get a good alcohol wipe down as the photos show how much oil mist and grime has collected on the wiring and metalwork …. just waiting to jump onto my pinkies!
Cheers!

 

[suzook12]

@Rocky and @Woollybandit, I am pleased I can help.


The Zener was causing a short because it had failed and is connected across the battery, -ve connection is the Brown/Blue wire, +ve connection is through its mounting.

In case it was not absolutely clear in that "other forum" thread, you cannot use the bike without replacing the Zener. It primarily ensures DC does not rise above about 15V irrespective of the AC Volts; because the bike has electronic ignition, I would not risk even running the engine; without the regulation, even just blipping the throttle could send the unregulated Volts too high for the Rita.

The Zener's other function is, when the alternator is generating more than the DC electrics are using, the Zener converts excess generated Amps into heat (the reason it is bolted to one of the airboxes, which acts as a heatsink).


I do not replace with new Zeners; not only are they are expensive, they are collectively unreliable - some have been known to allow DC to rise to nearly 20V! - and difficult to test before connecting to the bike.

I prefer to fit the electronic combined regulator/rectifier I mentioned earlier, either Regulator Rectifier & 5 Way Male Plug For Honda CB250 CBR400 CBR600 900RR 1100XX | eBay, Tri-Spark (Australian dollars ) or Podtronics - "VR.10124/P" from TMS; there are numerous others but I would not use them.

Reg/rec are connected differently from the rectifier and Zener but it is not difficult; the other upside is, because the Brown/Blue wire connections for rectifier and Zener will not be required, any new replacement wire can be direct from battery -ve to the ignition switch.

All the reg/rec I have suggested are 3-phase whereas your bike's standard alternator is/was single phase. I always advise 3-phase reg/rec even on bikes with single phase alternators because: connection is not a problem; if an alternator upgrade is ever necessary or desired, ime a 3-phase alternator is the best, the reg/rec is present already.

As this thread has unintentionally turned into wiring modification, suppliers of wire, terminals and crimping tools - as well as Autosparks I linked with the larger earth wires snap connector, also Vehicle Wiring Products. I have used both for many years without any problems.

I would be wary of using cheap chinese reg/regs on any bike. Having had a motorcycle workshop for several years, I can tell you these items were frequently changed. A far better bet using a 2nd hand nippon denso unit from say a Z400/500/550 etc ( all these are 5 wire for fixed magnet type alternators) or go to someone such as Westcountry Windings - Products for UK based forum users.... I would stay away from honda ones, as many of these were trouble at best, and a lot of earlier hondas were of the field winding magnet type alternator.

Another thing often overlooked in electrics, 6mm spades, max current for these is 30A. If you try and draw more they will overheat, as seen on many reg/rec connector blocks..... Although with meriden twins, this shouldn't really be an issue
Steve

 

[Rudie]

Regulator Rectifier & 5 Way Male Plug For Honda CB250 CBR400 CBR600 900RR 1100XX | eBay

I would be wary of using cheap chinese reg/regs on any bike.

Specifically the Honda pattern one has been recommended on other internet forums for old British bikes by at least two people with high internet profiles, the longest for about twelve years. No posted problems.

Podtronics have been around for at least forty years to my certain knowledge. The person who owns it and has the reg/rec made is a US parts wholesaler, also with a high internet forum profile.

Tri-Spark's owner is an electronics engineer and T160 owner, he has been supplying electronic components for well over twenty years.

I have had one of the Honda pattern reg/rec for about five years, no problems.

A far better bet using a 2nd hand nippon denso unit from say a Z400/500/550 etc ( all these are 5 wire

Not possible. One of the five wires is a separate load sensing wire, connected to the ignition switch; by definition, it is positive, pre 79 British bikes are 'positive earth'. 79 on British bikes, while 'negative earth', all have 3 phase alternators, those reg/rec are 5 wire because the alternators are single phase.

All of the reg/rec I linked in the quoted post are 5 wire because none have a separate load sensing wire, all have only one DC+ wire and one DC- wire so work independently of 'earth', are 3 phase so can be used with both 3 phase and single phase alternators.

 

[suzook12]

Specifically the Honda pattern one has been recommended on other internet forums for old British bikes by at least two people with high internet profiles, the longest for about twelve years. No posted problems.

Podtronics have been around for at least forty years to my certain knowledge. The person who owns it and has the reg/rec made is a US parts wholesaler, also with a high internet forum profile.

Tri-Spark's owner is an electronics engineer and T160 owner, he has been supplying electronic components for well over twenty years.

I have had one of the Honda pattern reg/rec for about five years, no problems.


Not possible. One of the five wires is a separate load sensing wire, connected to the ignition switch; by definition, it is positive, pre 79 British bikes are 'positive earth'. 79 on British bikes, while 'negative earth', all have 3 phase alternators, those reg/rec are 5 wire because the alternators are single phase.

All of the reg/rec I linked in the quoted post are 5 wire because none have a separate load sensing wire, all have only one DC+ wire and one DC- wire so work independently of 'earth', are 3 phase so can be used with both 3 phase and single phase alternators.

Sorry, you are correct, the Z series are my go to 6 wire reg /rec, can still be used if you know how to wire a bike, you're not tied to positive earth once the zener has gone, the 5 wire units I use are Yamaha items. If you want a good new unit expect to pay in excess of £100.

I can't comment about either the tri spark unit or the podtronics as I haven't used them, but I have gone through box loads of chinese reg/recs. But then, sub £15 delivered from China, it's hardly surprising

 

[Rudie]

the Z series are my go to 6 wire reg /rec, can still be used if you know how to wire a bike, you're not tied to positive earth

As most readers are confused by "positive earth" and "negative earth" and the forum is for information, post your explanation of how to wire a bike?

 

[suzook12]

As most readers are confused by "positive earth" and "negative earth" and the forum is for information, post your explanation of how to wire a bike?

There isn't a simple explanation of "how to", I will however, if you wish, prepare an article over the coming weeks to post up, that will include pictures as well, as just words very often causes the confusion....

The best analogy I have for understanding earth, as explained to me, was this. You are using your vehicle as a tank full of electricity, to ensure a smooth flow, you use many outlets rather than just the one. Imagine it as a tank of water, if you connect many small hoses all over the bottom of the tank they will happily flow independantly until the tank runs empty. If however, you join all the pipes together and take them from one outlet, then flows to the smaller pipes can be interrupted by larger pipe flows