Well, those buggers…
Restoring & Modifying 1971 OIF TR120
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Well, those buggers…
Lordmac
Well-Known Member
Now this interests me considerably. I always thought the rear caliper should have a chrome cover like the front one, but because of the steel "s" pipe, the cover will not fit. And, the idea of a "one-piece" braided hose sounds significantly more robust with less clutter and fittings than the original rubber-covered one with the steel pipe. I wonder if a cover could be used with the new setup?
Did you find anything other that corrosion that prevented you dismantling the original rear master cylinder? I and others on forums have serviced dozens of them over the years, if lots of September 1977 onwards Lockheed master cylinders really could not be dismantled, it would be all over the forums.
Ime, corrosion is the killer, especially as these bikes get older and original master cylinders remain untouched for longer. I have yet to be defeated dismantling an original master cylinder but, in addition to various heat sources, I have access to specialist removal like spark erosion. Nevertheless, having dismantled an original master cylinder, I am finding more and more new parts are required, to the point where a complete new master cylinder is often cheaper and less time consuming.
As standard, T160 rear caliper has a chromed cover same as the front, original T160 rear steel pipe did not prevent the cover being fitted. Replacing the original steel pipe and rubber hose combination with braided hose, a more expensive hose end fitting (90 degree female on to a male/male adapter into the caliper) was needed to retain the cover. When I replaced the original steel caliper with an alloy one, as the chromed cover does not fit the alloy caliper, I was able to use a cheaper banjo and bolt.
Lordmac
Well-Known Member
I can't really argue that point. As this machine has been stored in a dry environment and not exposed to any moisture directly, corrosion has not been much of an issue. However, I realize INSIDE of the master cylinder is a whole nuther issue. The only way I could see if it was corroded (though externally there was no indication of such) was if it came apart and could be examined. It did not come apart. It is so glued together no evil and mean twisting could make it budge. So, in lieu of that, I replaced the master with Harris's stainless model. Very nice too. But still, there is something amiss, and I SHALL get to the bottom (literally) of it! And, if I wanted to, I could buy an old-stock replacement that DOES come apart.
One thing that does that is any of the glycol based brake fluids (DOT3, 4, 5.1) if the seal at end of the cylinder inside the mounting leaks.
It is also possible leaking fluid is the necessary electrolyte for that type of corrosion between master cylinder and mounting casting? I first took my bikes' master cylinders apart decades ago, greasing any threads during reassembly and swapped to DOT5.If the "glue" is congealed old brake fluid, and you have access to spark erosion, one thing that might break the bond is overnight or so in the liquid in the tank.
Lordmac
Well-Known Member
I looked into the reason the T160 can have the same cover front and rear while the T140V cannot. They have completely different-shaped steel brake lines, and different caliper plates too (which plate has nothing to do with it, but just a little trivia). As you stated, the brake pipe that fits the T160 does not interfere with the chrome cover while the T140V "S" shaped pipe directly interferes with the cover being fitted. A slot about 1/4" x 3/4" would have to be cut into the cover to accommodate the "S" pipe's location. I know this because I just studied upon it yesterday. The problem with making such a modification to the cover is: cutting on a chromed piece will eventually lead to rust at the edges. But, maybe I can figure out a way to stop rust and . . . install a chromed cover so my bike will look cool.
The chromed covers were always chromed poorly, they always rust inside.
Before I was told about waxing chrome with beeswax to prevent rust, I painted the inside of covers with Hammerite, ime that also prevents rust, would protect the edges of any cut slot.However, if you replace the standard pipe and hose combination with braided hose, you can choose the hose end fittings to allow the fitting of a cover without modifying the cover.
Lordmac
Well-Known Member
That is the best way to do it, I agree. I'm going to get the parts and make the changes as soon as is humanly possible, or, whenever I feel like pulling the rear wheel and silencer just for fun. Oh, I also found out that I need to install two (21-2189) brake caliper fixing studs (which, handily, are not shown/listed in my '78 parts catalogue) so that the caliper cover screws have somewhere to screw into. What's there right now have no threads for those little screws. Always something . . .
You are confused?
21-2189 studs mount the front caliper to the left hand fork slider, the studs have 3/8"-20 BSF thread on the end into the slider.
78 parts book shows standard14-0232 bolts through the 37-7020 Rear caliper mounting plate for that caliper? If so, T160 21-2330 bolts are the same diameter, thread and length but have the caliper cover mounting screw thread in the end.
Lordmac
Well-Known Member
Dazed AND confused on this one.
An internet search (a broad one) came back with the 21-2189 caliper mounting stud, that I initially thought might fit. However, after you clarified its proper application, I vaguely remembered that there are bolts not studs holding the rear caliper on my T140V.
The '78 parts book shows the 14-0232 bolt you mentioned which has no threaded hole. I was somehow going to make sure that the correct parts were realized and now that been done. The 21-2330 "bolt-with-threaded-hole" is not listed in my parts catalogue because that part is not originally equipped on my bike, and that is the confusing aspect to making changes from original: different parts on different models. LP Williams has those on hand, I see.
Thanks for your time and effort making it less confusing.
The New Management* have stopped poster's country flags appearing with posts ...
LPW is great if you are in the UK but I had it in mind you are in the US? If so, Mitch Klempf has the bolts both new ($10 each) and used ($5 each).*Will only mean anything to anyone familiar with British comedians Hale & Pace ...
The ‘new’ steering lock I had installed failed—fortunately, by just falling apart while unlocked. Innards came out with the key.
Laboriously drilled out old securing bolt, popped out old casing, and re-tapped threads.
Note: the 1/4-28 tap says ‘use No. 3 drill.’ Don’t use a no. 3 in this soft steel when merely cleaning leftover metal out of the threads. I used a no. 5 drill to prevent any chaff from damaging those old, soft threads—then just cleaned things up with the 1/4-28 tap and installed the new lock.
Smearing the peg that rides in the spiral groove to move the plunger up and down with grease is a good idea. I like Slick Honey for stuff like this that is mainly lubrication plus rust resistance. Slick Honey is bike grease, so won’t dry out like lithium grease.
Laboriously drilled out old securing bolt, popped out old casing, and re-tapped threads.
Note: the 1/4-28 tap says ‘use No. 3 drill.’ Don’t use a no. 3 in this soft steel when merely cleaning leftover metal out of the threads. I used a no. 5 drill to prevent any chaff from damaging those old, soft threads—then just cleaned things up with the 1/4-28 tap and installed the new lock.
Smearing the peg that rides in the spiral groove to move the plunger up and down with grease is a good idea. I like Slick Honey for stuff like this that is mainly lubrication plus rust resistance. Slick Honey is bike grease, so won’t dry out like lithium grease.
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Lordmac
Well-Known Member
Mine, I just discovered, will no longer lock. It's stuck. I may have to use nookuler forze! (or is that nookyooler?)
And why do they use those little, dinky "grub screws" (which we here in 'Mercuh call allen-head set screws)? Those little, dinky grub screw almost NEVER come out before stripping the "allen" clean out.
Yeah, if you drill out the set screw, it’s easy to knock the cylinder up out of the triple clamp. I feel like the bike is reasonably secure with the fork lock engaged and my Kryptonite disc rotor lock in place. Also, just takes 60 seconds to get her ready to ride off.
Otherwise the lock would just rotate in the yoke when you turned the key ...
Could be incorrect terminology or just "two countries separated by a common language" ... In the UK:-
. "grub screw" does not have a head larger than the thread o.d.; does not have to have an Allen key socket in one end, the end can be slotted for a screwdriver;
. "setscrew" does have a head larger than the thread o.d. and is fully threaded from tip to under head ("bolt" is only threaded part way).
As with other fasteners, steering lock grub screws were not assembled with lubricant. However, during original assembly, a protective lead plug was fitted in yokes after the steering lock and grub screw. So, if a steering lock screw is visible before you begin trying to remove it, a d.p.o. has been there before you, possibly replaced the lock, definitely failed to replace the protective lead plug ...
Lead plug present or not, on most (all?) of the different fork designs, grub screws have spent decades facing rain and road spray when these bikes were daily riders. Lead plug fitted should have prevented rain and road spray corroding the grub screw; however, I doubt anyone at Triumph or BSA thought these bikes would still be around a half century and more later?
Lordmac
Well-Known Member
I know why they use the screws to lock things, but I was more wondering why they make them so darned LITTLE and dinky. Heck, they sure can't take much of a twist before the slot, or the allen head, hex-key thang boogers up.
Over here in US of A, a set screw can be headless. They call them allen head set screws. I like having different terms for the same thing. Keeps one guessing.
I haven't looked at why my steering lock doesn't work. I hope a little lube might help . . .
Try it, you will booger the key first. It is possible to twist the lock outer, gouge it with the end of the grub screw, but the lock inner has to have been broken out so a chisel and large hammer can be used on the outer.
Larger grub screw would require a larger hole, compromising the strength of the yoke for its primary purpose (keeping the fork legs and steering stem in alignment) without additional material, making it heavier.
Zipped on down to the Pull-N-Pay to grab a pair of Fiamm, Italian-made horns from a Volvo C30 (the S40 and others use the same horns), $13.10 out the door with pigtails attached. A new pair would’ve been >$100.
I have fitted them and mañana or later this week will remove the OEM horn and make up a new relay bracket. The relay will be hidden inside the front frame gusseting and gas tank’s tunnel.
As the first two photos show, the horns are nearly invisible in profile and from the saddle; the second two pics show their location and simple aluminum angle iron brackets. Actually, as I look at the first photo, the side-view will actually be less cluttered than with the OEM horn, which you can see hanging down just below the steering neck…
Anyway, I tested them and they are as I remembered from the ’67 Midget hot rod: bright, Euro-sounding, and loud. Much like the pair on my Beemer but a bit higher in tone, so yield a slightly lighter, happier sound. And with their greater midrange, they’ll be more effective than the OEM horn in warning off autos at speed.
I have fitted them and mañana or later this week will remove the OEM horn and make up a new relay bracket. The relay will be hidden inside the front frame gusseting and gas tank’s tunnel.
As the first two photos show, the horns are nearly invisible in profile and from the saddle; the second two pics show their location and simple aluminum angle iron brackets. Actually, as I look at the first photo, the side-view will actually be less cluttered than with the OEM horn, which you can see hanging down just below the steering neck…
Anyway, I tested them and they are as I remembered from the ’67 Midget hot rod: bright, Euro-sounding, and loud. Much like the pair on my Beemer but a bit higher in tone, so yield a slightly lighter, happier sound. And with their greater midrange, they’ll be more effective than the OEM horn in warning off autos at speed.
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Rode into town for a salad and some errands, and decided to run back north on I-25 just for the heck of it. Ran the bike at 5,000 which was sufficient to keep up with traffic in the R/H lane (and pass a few trucks), and while I would have preferred fewer rpms if I were to maintain that speed for a long time, the engine seemed fine.
Then I got off the bike and… yup. L/H Volvo horn had vibrated off the mount.
So… back down there on Friday for another $5.00 horn (there is an S40 whose grille is intact, so the horns should be in place.).
And this time, I’ll be applying blue loctite to the threads of the horns’ fastening nuts. Maybe red…?
Also: installed the progressive-rate springs (unbranded/cheap from TBS) and… wow. What an improvement. I am more comfortable tossing it over going into the S-curve, and while a little less cushy over the bumps, the bike just handles better and the braking dive is reduced. Well worth $60 and 15 minutes to install them (that includes putting the bike on the lift).
As you can see, they are a bit longer than stock (the OEM springs were still the length called out in the manual as shown), and the additional preload means the bike is leaned over just a touch more on the sidestand—which was needed, really, as the extension I welded on was a bit too long. The ‘preload kit’ TBS includes is hilarious: a chunk of PVC pipe and two washers. Just cut a few slices and ‘dial in’ your desired preload!
Note: the OEM springs are free for the cost of postage, if someone wants a pair.
Then I got off the bike and… yup. L/H Volvo horn had vibrated off the mount.
So… back down there on Friday for another $5.00 horn (there is an S40 whose grille is intact, so the horns should be in place.).And this time, I’ll be applying blue loctite to the threads of the horns’ fastening nuts. Maybe red…?
Also: installed the progressive-rate springs (unbranded/cheap from TBS) and… wow. What an improvement. I am more comfortable tossing it over going into the S-curve, and while a little less cushy over the bumps, the bike just handles better and the braking dive is reduced. Well worth $60 and 15 minutes to install them (that includes putting the bike on the lift).
As you can see, they are a bit longer than stock (the OEM springs were still the length called out in the manual as shown), and the additional preload means the bike is leaned over just a touch more on the sidestand—which was needed, really, as the extension I welded on was a bit too long. The ‘preload kit’ TBS includes is hilarious: a chunk of PVC pipe and two washers. Just cut a few slices and ‘dial in’ your desired preload!
Note: the OEM springs are free for the cost of postage, if someone wants a pair.
