Which Ignition Is This On My 1972 Bonnie

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Woollybandit

Well-Known Member
Hi,
lost the ignitio/spark on the Bonnie and whilst finding out what is the problem I opened the points cover to see this.
Also checked cable connections under seat ……. first two I looked at had dry connectors which showed power on the strand cable but not on the bullet. Must be clamped onto the insulation and touching occasionally. Resoldered now but battery went flat and now out getting new replacement acid type.

So I will admit I’m not any kind of expert on electrics but can follow a single line diagram/system …….. don’t even show me a canbus system! I’ll put the battery in and push connectors together but I’m unsure how to test this ‘pointless' ignition for continuity.

Does anyone recognise it so I can search for more info on it?

thanks
 

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Paul is correct it is a Lucas Rita. While they were fitted as original equipment from during the 78 model year (the last batch of 78 T140E had them), they were sold as aftermarket points and a.a.u. replacement from the early 1970's.

Your photos show the aftermarket trigger unit, is it fitted to your T120V mentioned in your earlier posts? In addition to confirming bike model and year of manufacture, please also confirm whether it has standard (positive or negative earth) electrics or whether it has been converted to the other, how standard the wiring and switches are ... and please also post a photo of the electronics 'box' - what Lucas called the "amplifier".

I’ll put the battery in and push connectors together but I’m unsure how to test this ‘pointless' ignition for continuity.
search for more info on it?
Ime, there are very few people online who know much about them; searching unfortunately could get you as much poor information as good. :( Requested information posted, I can certainly tell you how to test it, I can also suggest a simple modification to the trigger unit wiring that will remove a common failure point.

Testing will also require a decent multimeter.
 
Paul is correct it is a Lucas Rita. While they were fitted as original equipment from during the 78 model year (the last batch of 78 T140E had them), they were sold as aftermarket points and a.a.u. replacement from the early 1970's.

Your photos show the aftermarket trigger unit, is it fitted to your T120V mentioned in your earlier posts? In addition to confirming bike model and year of manufacture, please also confirm whether it has standard (positive or negative earth) electrics or whether it has been converted to the other, how standard the wiring and switches are ... and please also post a photo of the electronics 'box' - what Lucas called the "amplifier".


Ime, there are very few people online who know much about them; searching unfortunately could get you as much poor information as good. :( Requested information posted, I can certainly tell you how to test it, I can also suggest a simple modification to the trigger unit wiring that will remove a common failure point.

Testing will also require a decent multimeter.
Good morning Rudie,

the '72 T120V has moved to a new and proud owner. That had the Electrex system that allowed starting without a battery but minimal, if any, battery charging.
This is my latest T120R with high pipes and trials tyres (sort of a twin carb TR6C !). It is a 1972 Bonnie (again) but the head has spigots fitted and it has earlier rocker boxes with the smaller tapper access. :( ….. I set them by feel now as side accesses are seized and I don’t want to push my luck trying to unscrew them. Fortunately I know what 4 thou feels like and I don’t mind if they at say, 6 thou. Engine number HE 30701.

Definitely +ve earth and I’ve just found a surprisingly large box behind the oil downtube (Pictured).
Here is a photo of the 'wiring system'. Since fitting the new battery it has now developed a short and burning out the main fuse which it didn’t have before! Grr!
I have studied a wiring diagram found on Terry Mcdonalds site and it looks like that as far as an untrained eye can see. How would a non-standard differ other than the ignition or complete simplification? Other than indicators I can’t imagine the engine could operate on much less than what’s there.
I have a good multi meter.

Thanks guys for the responses :)
 

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Other than indicators I can’t imagine the engine could operate on much less than what’s there.
At the risk of sounding like Bojo trying to recover from his latest verbal faux pas, I should clarify ….. that I meant I couldn’t imagine the MOTORCYCLE could operate on much less ….
 
1972 Bonnie
Engine number HE 30701.
The date code "E" means it is a 71 although the number makes it one of the last, "Bonnie" says 72 began with HG30870. 71 also had exhaust pipe spigots in the head and individual tappet access caps over each valve, 72 onwards had push in pipes and the large single cover on each rocker box.

It is possible the "side accesses" for feeler gauges are not seized but have been Loctited in place by a p.o.; Meriden did not make the modification well - the thread is UNC but the rocker box walls are thin so there are very few actual threads; if an "Access plug" goes missing, the rider discovers how much oil does make it into the rocker boxes ...

The only standard electrical difference between 71 and 72 is the handlebar switches:-

. 71, the drive side central 'paddle' is the dipswitch, timing side works the indicators;

. 72, they appear to swap sides - drive side central paddle is the indicators, timing side is the dipswitch - actually, because the 'paddle' is still down-for-dip, up-for-main , the two switches are different internally, making the 71 dipswitch one year only. The button functions also swap sides at the same time.

The 71/72 workshop manual has the two wiring diagrams.

Definitely +ve earth
I have a good multi meter.

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(y) 79 or later Lucas AB11 amplifier.

studied a wiring diagram found on Terry Mcdonalds site
The standard wiring looks in remarkably good shape; if it is not the original loom, it is also better quality than most Wassell "Genuine Lucas" ...

Whoever chose the Rita chose well, it cost more than than the contemporary Boyer but it was always better quality. However, the use of red, blue and yellow insulated terminals and the Rita connection suggests the fitter then had poor electrical knowledge and a greater desire to do things cheaply than well - the Rita appears to have been connected to original coils just to save the cost of replacing them with 6V, but the 'parallel connection' necessarily used causes the ignition to draw around 7 Amps, instead of half that with 6V coils and the alternative 'series connection'. :(

Apologies in advance if you know this already - most electronic ignitions connect to multiple ignition coils 'in series' - their single switched output is connected to just one coil's negative terminal, other coils are connected positive-to-subsequent-coil-negative, only the positive terminal of the last coil in the series is connected to battery +ve.

Otoh, Rita was uniquely built with a more robust power transistor than other e.i., it can switch multiple coils connected to it 'in parallel'; your first photo appears to show this is what was done:-

. The plain Black, White/Black and White/Yellow wires emerging from the black sleeving just behind the timing side coil (lower coil in your first photo) are from the AB11?

. If so, the plain Black wire is connected to a White/Yellow wire (connection in the middle of your first photo); the other end of this WY is (should be) at the engine kill button?

. The White/Black wire from the black sleeving is connected to a small square component partially hidden by the fuse holder? While a photo of it would help, I suspect the "square component" is one of the cheap Chinese rectifiers, two of its diodes being necessary in the coils 'in parallel' connections. From that component, a White/Black (or Black/White?) wire goes to each coil's -ve terminal?

. The White/Yellow wire from the black sleeving is connected to each coil's +ve terminal?

. However, the second White/Yellow wire from the drive side coil (upper coil in your first photo) that disappears to the rear of the coil, what does the other end of that wire connect to?

Btw, the reason for AB11 Black connected to bike White/Yellow and AB11 White/Yellow connected to bike +ve is the AB11 was developed originally for the 79 twins, which are -ve earth. -ve earth, Lucas's standard colour code is plain Black for -ve wires and not using plain Red anywhere at all in the loom.

Please confirm the coils are 12V - their primary resistance (between each coil's two threaded terminals) should be 3.5~4 Ohms?

Finally here, in your first photo, to the rear of the timing side coil, between the frame tube and the mudguard, the circular thing with White, Brown, etc. wires is the back of the ignition switch?

Here is a photo of the 'wiring system'.
Other than indicators I can’t imagine the engine could operate on much less than what’s there.
Ime, while it is relatively easy to use less wire than Lucas used, it is difficult to have fewer circuits than Lucas built in. People who claim to have 'simplified' Lucas wiring soon discover BSA did not pay Lucas for excesses, either have to leave out parts Lucas had persuaded BSA were essential or complicate with electronics that might be cheap now but were expensive or did not exist half a century ago.
 
Ime, while it is relatively easy to use less wire than Lucas used, it is difficult to have fewer circuits than Lucas built in. People who claim to have 'simplified' Lucas wiring soon discover BSA did not pay Lucas for excesses,
The words "easy", "difficult", and "simplified" all being relative terms!
 
Although HE is July 1971 the registration date is 30th March 1972 so maybe the engine hung around without a frame for a while. It’s not recorded as re-imported from the States which might have accounted for a 'stab in the dark' method of dating!

I have had one feeler access cap off and was shocked at the lack of threads so replaced it with PTFE tape (as I'm not a fan of liberal use of Loctite) and revert to the finger wobble method of gapping tappets. It’s amazing how quickly you get a 'feel' for it.
How difficult would it have been to add a boss/local thickening in the casting for better thread depth there, eh?

Indicators are on the right side (twistgrip), no power to test because of the short but switch goes both up and down on right bar and only middle or up on the left bar. That makes it '71?

With the terminals off the coils measure 3.8ohms DS and 4.1 ohms TS so you say they are 12v?

'The standard wiring looks in remarkably good shape' …… well the more I look at it it doesn’t seem to be as bad a plate of spaghetti as I feared. I can’t believe the plastic loom wrap is fifty years old … I don’t know when they stopped using fabric wrap but I would be surprised if the adhesive would have lasted til now! A lot can happen in fifty years.

No, I wasn’t aware of the parallel/series distinction between 6v & 12v but I’m learning all the time. As a freelance designer all my life I’m used to picking up companies ways of doing things pretty quickly, that wiring is beginning to look less daunting hour by hour. ;)
From the new photos which way are mine wired?

I suppose the terminals tucked into the fender cross support are left over from the old points system but as they disappear into the taped loom I can’t trace where they go to. Not looking forward to stripping that tape off if I can’t avoid it ….. wires everywhere!

I noticed that mine is a Rita AB11 47270B whereas all photos I saw on Gurgle were 47270A, were these for Nortons and the 'B's for the Triumphs with their different 38 deg advance?

I’ll have to reread the text about coloured cables when I have a clearer head - getting a dazed at the mo'.

I have added yet more photos at different angles showing the flat box between the coils and, yes, the round object is indeed the key switch. The flat box looks relatively new in both design and condition. Would that be the rectifier?
Also added the three wiring diagrams I have drawn from the net. The 1971 schematic shows the indicators on the right grip and the main/dip on the left grip, as per my bike. So 1971 it is then.

Some guys who put this all up in their own time are real heroes!!!

I really appreciate the info and tuition from you guys ….. stellar!
 

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As I can’t keep burning through my stash of 30A fuses what is the way to find the short in the loom? I put the dead fuse back in the holder to keep the sprung terminals apart …… without the dead fuse the contact ends touched in the holder and started to melt the white and brown/blue wire either side, as can be seen in the photo 1.
Only took a couple of seconds!!
 
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As I can’t keep burning through my stash of 30A fuses what is the way to find the short in the loom? I put the dead fuse back in the holder to keep the sprung terminals apart …… without the dead fuse the contact ends touched in the holder and started to melt the white and brown/blue wire either side, as can be seen in the photo 1.
Only took a couple of seconds!!
I was about to suggest that!
 
Although HE is July 1971 the registration date is 30th March 1972 so maybe the engine hung around without a frame for a while.
More likely it just was not sold, 1971 was a very bad year for Triumph. Your bike probably sold early in 1972 because it was discounted heavily so Triumph could try and sell the bikes they were actually building in 1972.

Indicators are on the right side (twistgrip), no power to test because of the short but switch goes both up and down on right bar and only middle or up on the left bar. That makes it '71?
Handlebar switches with the headlamp dipswitch, cylinder head exhaust spigots, individual rocker access caps were all 71-72 changes.

With the terminals off the coils measure 3.8ohms DS and 4.1 ohms TS so you say they are 12v?
Yes.

wiring
I can’t believe the plastic loom wrap is fifty years old … I don’t know when they stopped using fabric wrap
My feeling too the loom is not original, but possibly an original Lucas spare fitted with the Rita, possibly in the 1980's? Lucas was making spares but there was not the current fixation with "original", so Lucas would have used contemporary production techniques - e.g. plastic tape wrapping.

I wasn’t aware of the parallel/series distinction
which way are mine wired?
In parallel. (n)

Any electrical circuit is between -ve and +ve and must include an electrical resistance or it is a short circuit - lots of Amps, melted wiring, fire, etc. (n)

'Connection in parallel' mean each component has its own connections to battery -ve and to battery +ve; ignition components are 'in parallel' with light bulbs, are in parallel with the horn, etc.

'Connection in series' means more than one component but the whole series has just one connection to battery -ve and one to battery +ve. Coils 'connected in series' have the e.i. switched wire connected to just one coil's -ve terminal, that coil's +ve terminal is connected to another coil's -ve terminal, that second coil's +ve terminal could be connected to a third coil's -ve terminal, and so on, only the +ve terminal of the last coil in the series is actually connected to battery +ve.

Multi cylinder engine with a separate ignition coil for each cylinder switched by points, the coils are connected 'in parallel' with each other. Your bike has one White/Yellow wire from the handlebar engine kill button, it was originally connected to one coil's -ve terminal, the WY wire spade terminal had a second WY wire crimped into it, the other end of that second wire was connected to the other coil's -ve terminal; each coil's +ve terminal had a separate wire to one set of points, one side of each set of points was not insulated from the points plate, the points plate was in electrical contact with the engine, on something like a cylinder head bolt, a Red wire is connected, the loom Red wires are interconnected and to battery +ve. So each ignition coil had its own connection to battery -ve through the kill button and ignition switch, had its own connection to battery +ve through its points, the engine, loom Red wires.

Currently, your bike's Rita connections mimic the above, except any electronic ignition is always connected on the -ve side of any ignition coil. Your bike's White/Yellow wire from the handlebar engine kill button is connected to the Rita Black -ve wire, the Rita's White/Black switched wire is connected to both coils' -ve terminals, the Rita's White/Yellow +ve wire and both coils' +ve terminals are (should be) connected to battery +ve.

Points switch only the connected coil on and off individually, so multiple coils are not all on and charging at the same time. The downside of the current Rita connections compared to coils switched by points is Rita switches all connected coils on and off at the same time, all off when any cylinder requires a spark ("wasted spark"), all on and charging at the same time; this is why your bike's Rita connections cause such high Amps draw. :(

Because Rita switches all connected coils on and off at the same time, it is better to connect multiple coils in series. Components connected in series, their individual resistances are cumulative, you know a 12V coil's primary resistance is ~4 Ohms, a 6V coil's primary resistance is approximately half that, so if you connect two 6V coils in series, they will have the same total primary resistance as one 12V coil, so the Amps drawn by two 6V coils will be about the same as one 12V coil. (y)

The flat box looks relatively new in both design and condition. Would that be the rectifier?
"flat box" is:-

b7d615fb-6209-4d25-8581-3a453cdf3e93-jpeg.51952


... if so, this is where you could become very confused ... it is a rectifier but it is not the rectifier on your bike ... the rectifier is the circular multiplate thing to the right of the "flat box" ...:-

. if you look at the wiring diagrams you have labelled "1971 T120" and "1972 T120", "RECTIFIER" is depicted as four arrowheads with one point against two lines perpendicular to one another;

. each "arrowhead with one point against two lines perpendicular to one another" is the standard symbol for a diode;

. alternators generate Alternating Current, which primarily cannot charge a battery or work electronics, four diodes connected as depicted convert Alternating Current to Direct Current, which can both charge a battery and work electronics; (y)

. the Rita wiring diagram shows two diodes, in the White/Black wire between the amp and each coil's -ve terminal;

. your photo. shows the White/Black wire from the Rita connected to the "flat box" terminal that would be an AC terminal if it was being used as rectifier, the other two White/Black wires are to the coil -ve terminals, the two diodes inside the "flat box" between the terminals are the two diodes represented in the Rita wiring diagram.

I suppose the terminals tucked into the fender cross support are left over from the old points system but as they disappear into the taped loom I can’t trace where they go
British twin cylinder bikes, two coils switched by points, Black/White wires connect the drive side coil +ve terminal, condenser and points; Black/Yellow wires connected the timing side coil +ve terminal, condenser and points.

On OIF, the condensers were mounted between the coils; your bike's drive side condenser mounting hole is visible in your photos, timing side condenser mounting hole now mounts the bike's rectifier (circular multiplate thing). Black/White and Black/Yellow wires consisted of a short wire from the coil +ve terminal to the condenser male spade terminal, female spade terminal had a second wire crimped into it that went to the points.

With Rita (most e.i.), the Black/White and Black/Yellow points wires are repurposed to connect the electronics box to the trigger unit in the original points compartment in the engine timing cover.

I noticed that mine is a Rita AB11 47270B whereas all photos I saw on Gurgle were 47270A, were these for Nortons and the 'B's for the Triumphs with their different 38 deg advance?
Nortons were never fitted with Rita as original equipment.

Lucas A, B, etc. part number suffixes was their system to show revisions - A was the suffix of the first production version, B was the first revision, etc.

Most (all?) Rita amps have one advance curve, it is modified for different bikes by the trigger unit fitted.

I have added yet more photos at different angles showing the flat box between the coils and, yes, the round object is indeed the key switch.
(y) Thanks.

I put the dead fuse back in the holder to keep the sprung terminals apart …… without the dead fuse the contact ends touched in the holder and started to melt the white and brown/blue wire either side,
Is the ignition switch in the off position? This is not when the key is turned fully anticlockwise, then the pilot and rear lights are on, known as "parking lights".

Everything off is one click clockwise from fully anticlockwise. If the fuse blows with the key in this position, the short can only be between battery -ve and the ignition switch. Disconnect the Brown/Blue wire from ignition switch terminal 1 to eliminate the possibility of a faulty switch. Then the most likely candidates for a short with the ignition switch off are the rectifier and Zener diode. Disconnect the Brown/Blue wire from both, fit new fuse, reconnect one at a time, with a short but noticeable pause between each reconnection. If the fuse does not blow when rectifier and Zener diode are reconnected, reconnect Brown/Blue to ignition switch terminal 1.

way to find the short in the loom?
After the previous two paragraphs, still easy, if convoluted the first time.

Easy because you just connect a light bulb in place of the fuse.

Convoluted the first time because:-

. you need to acquire another fuse holder the same as the existing one;

. add one part of the new fuse holder to each end of the bulb holder's wires;

. then the bulb holder can be connected between the two parts of the existing fuse holder.

Once you can connect a bulb in place of the fuse, start by disconnecting all the wires from the ignition switch, reconnect one at a time in the following order; when the 'fuse bulb' lights, you have located the short:-

. turn the ignition key fully anti-clockwise, reconnect the Brown/Green wire(s) to ignition switch terminal 3;

. turn the ignition key two clicks clockwise (one click clockwise being all off), reconnect the White wire(s) to ignition switch terminal 2.
 
Iif you can't straighten it out with Rudie's extended directions above, there might be no more hope!!!!
Just what I was thinking as I read it! Those instructions would allow me to rewire the entire non-lighting electrical system. I should print it off and laminate it ……. actually I think I will!
Clear and comprehensive rundown of the wiring. Now when I look at the photos I can actually see what’s going on there. Hopefully I won’t have to open up the headlamp shell either. It always looks packed in those.

I have a spare multimeter, is it possible to connect that set to Volts DC (or amps) in place of the test bulb to act as the load and watch the display? If I can safely put it across the battery to test the voltage then I’m assuming the meter can both handle the power and provide a resistance to the short. If not I can find a bulb and solder leads and crocodile clips to it.

Yet again I didn’t make myself clear ……. I am aware of the principles of parallel and series arrangements with effects on voltage, amperage and ohmage of said setup. Unfortunately I am not so knowledgeable about the effect on the coils and ignition system. One glance under the seat when you don’t know what boxes do what is as scary to me as “CONFIGURE NEW PRINTER TO NETWORK!”
I started out in 1974 on a drawing board and ended with battling a computer that costs £20k doesn’t want to play ball and is only replacing my pencil - but don’t get me started .
I am a (now temporarily retired due to the covid situation) Structural Consultant in Oil & Gas so get flummoxed when I can’t see a hard metal item and it’s problems. Although with Rudie's contribution above I now feel I could take on the world or at least this loom …. after breakfast and wearing/emptying out the dogs!
I particularly thank you for the section on how to trace the fault through the ignition switch and can’t wait to get out in the workshop.

I can’t say how much I appreciate the time and effort you have put into your post Rudie, if you lived near me you’d get a few beers and a Sunday lunch for your help!
 
Currently, your bike's Rita connections mimic the above, except any electronic ignition is always connected on the -ve side of any ignition coil. Your bike's White/Yellow wire from the handlebar engine kill button is connected to the Rita Black -ve wire, the Rita's White/Black switched wire is connected to both coils' -ve terminals, the Rita's White/Yellow +ve wire and both coils' +ve terminals are (should be) connected to battery +ve.
….. both coils' +ve terminals are (should be) connected to battery +ve. …..

Does this last part of the sentence still apply when my bike is +ve earth?

This short has appeared after simply unbolting old dead battery and bolting in new charged one. No cables were disconnected other than main fuse so I guess there must be a bare wire somewhere making ground contact. I’ll remove the tank and inspect, I need to reroute the throttle cables anyway. They are binding a bit as they are routed through a tightish hole in the TS frame neck.
 
Clear and comprehensive rundown of the wiring.
:y152:

spare multimeter, is it possible to connect that set to Volts DC (or amps) in place of the test bulb to act as the load and watch the display?
Set to Volts DC, yes.

If I can safely put it across the battery to test the voltage then I’m assuming the meter can both handle the power and provide a resistance to the short.
Not the same thing.

Volts are only one component of electrical power; on their own, Volts are simply the units of potential difference between -ve and +ve. A Voltmeter or multimeter set to Volts is an electrical resistance, is why it can be connected between -ve and +ve without "lots of Amps, melted wiring, fire, etc." (y)

Otoh, an Ammeter is not a resistance, it simply indicates the current passing through it (or beside it if it is an induction meter). However, most multimeter Ammeter functions are 10A max; short circuit, the battery is supplying several multiples of that.

Using a bulb in place of the fuse, the bulb is a resistance, so the 'short' is not actually, the bulb simply indicates when there is a complete circuit between battery -ve and +ve; because you are looking for an unwanted "complete circuit", the bulb just tells you when you have found it. Your idea of using your spare meter as a Voltmeter in place of the fuse, instead of a bulb, is a good one. (y)

Volts and Amps - if you consider the simplistic analogy to water, Volts are the angle of the slope the water is running down, Amps are the amount of water running down the slope, increase or decrease either affects the power in the water at the bottom of the slope.

I am a (now temporarily retired due to the covid situation) Structural Consultant in Oil & Gas
I am aware of the principles of parallel and series
Thanks for the clarification.

One of the improvements I was going to suggest later was to this:-

fc4d658e-257b-4acc-8c62-f289aeadae81-jpeg.51942


... and the existing fuse.

The existing fuse cannot prevent a short if something metal touches the actual battery -ve terminal, because the short is not then through the existing fuse. (n) What then happens almost instantly is the insulation on the loom's Red wires connected to battery +ve starts to melt. Lucas never built a loom with the Red wires connected as in your photo. above ...

Most useful would be:-

. replace the snap connector in your photo with one with more connections;

. reduce the number of wires between the new snap connector and the battery +ve terminal to a single one - connect all other wires currently connected directly to the battery +ve terminal to the new snap connector;

. have the main fuse in the single wire between the new snap connector and the battery +ve terminal, make the new fuse/holder a standard 15A blade fuse, that fuse type are cheaper, more widely available and more reliable than the obsolete glass tube fuses you are using currently.

Because your bike's electrics are "positive earth", fuse in the single wire actually connected to the battery +ve terminal will not only prevent all shorts the existing fuse does, it will also prevent the one I have described that led to a p.o. doing the wiring in your photo. above.

In addition, you can replace the existing obsolete fuse holder and collection of connections and short bits of wire with a new length of Brown/Blue direct from the battery -ve terminal to the existing Brown/Blue wire. Or, if regrettably either the rectifier or Zener diode are the cause of the existing short, their cheaper and more reliable replacement is a modern electronic combined regulator/rectifier, any new Brown/Blue wire can be direct from battery -ve to ignition switch as the existing connections for rectifier and Zener will not be required (loom will not require stripping, new wire can be secured neatly outside the loom :)).

Once the fuse holder is for a blade fuse, you can also consider off the shelf gadgets like this ... :cool:

both coils' +ve terminals are (should be) connected to battery +ve.
Does this last part of the sentence still apply when my bike is +ve earth?
Yes. They are being supplied through the Rita; assuming the rest of the ignition circuit is standard, the Rita is being supplied from battery -ve through the ignition switch and handlebar kill button; to complete the circuits, Rita +ve (its White/Yellow wire) and the coils' +ves must be connected to battery +ve.

Or are you asking if the Rita White/Yellow wire and the coils' +ves can be connected elsewhere on the bike? Again, improvements I was going to suggest at some stage:-

. The Rita +ve wire should be connected directly to the battery +ve terminal. Any circuit on the bike is from battery -ve to battery +ve; as any circuit is more likely to fail at a connection than within a wire, it does not make any sense electrically to introduce additional connections (e.g. Rita WY to cycle part, cycle part to battery +ve) that do not serve any useful purpose. Additionally, it is not impossible other electrical components connected to cycle or engine parts could generate electrical 'noise' that could affect the Rita's electronics; if the Rita +ve wire is connected directly to the battery +ve terminal, the chances of 'noise' from any other component affecting it are reduced.

. I connect coil +ve terminals to the loom's existing Red wires. In this case, connecting to cycle parts usually results in an unprotected connection, which can be affected by corrosion in the future. Otoh, insulated wire and connection from coil +ve to loom's existing Red wires at one of the existing bullet snap connectors is more weather-proof.

You should also ensure there is a loom Red wire connected to an engine component, one of the cylinder head bolts or studs through a rocker box? Reason is, coil with a single HT lead, while the coil's HT terminal is connected to one end of the HT windings, the other end of those HT windings are connected to a primary terminal - +ve in Lucas coils. The HT 'earths' through the spark plug's mounting on the cylinder head, loom Red wire connected to an engine fastener ensures a discrete and visible return path from the head to the coil +ve terminal.

"The Rita +ve wire should be connected directly to the battery +ve terminal" - in order both to protect specifically the Rita and the advised connection does not negate my earlier advice to connect only one fused wire to battery +ve, I fit a low Amps fuse in the Rita supply - e.g. where the Rita -ve Black wire is connected to the handlebar kill button White/Yellow wire. Rita supplying coils in series, so drawing 3A~3.5A, I fit a 5A or 7.5A blade fuse in the Rita supply; any problem in the ignition circuit, this will provide better protection than the 15A main fuse.

This short has appeared after simply unbolting old dead battery and bolting in new charged one. No cables were disconnected other than main fuse so I guess there must be a bare wire somewhere making ground contact.
Ime, I would not discount the possibility either rectifier or Zener have failed coincidentally. :( It is a matter of moments to disconnect rectifier and Zener Brown/Blue connections before beginning testing then reconnect them after connecting Voltmeter in place of fuse and reconnecting battery?
 
:y152:


Set to Volts DC, yes.


Not the same thing.

Volts are only one component of electrical power; on their own, Volts are simply the units of potential difference between -ve and +ve. A Voltmeter or multimeter set to Volts is an electrical resistance, is why it can be connected between -ve and +ve without "lots of Amps, melted wiring, fire, etc." (y)

Otoh, an Ammeter is not a resistance, it simply indicates the current passing through it (or beside it if it is an induction meter). However, most multimeter Ammeter functions are 10A max; short circuit, the battery is supplying several multiples of that.

Using a bulb in place of the fuse, the bulb is a resistance, so the 'short' is not actually, the bulb simply indicates when there is a complete circuit between battery -ve and +ve; because you are looking for an unwanted "complete circuit", the bulb just tells you when you have found it. Your idea of using your spare meter as a Voltmeter in place of the fuse, instead of a bulb, is a good one. (y)

Volts and Amps - if you consider the simplistic analogy to water, Volts are the angle of the slope the water is running down, Amps are the amount of water running down the slope, increase or decrease either affects the power in the water at the bottom of the slope.


Thanks for the clarification.

One of the improvements I was going to suggest later was to this:-

fc4d658e-257b-4acc-8c62-f289aeadae81-jpeg.51942


... and the existing fuse.

The existing fuse cannot prevent a short if something metal touches the actual battery -ve terminal, because the short is not then through the existing fuse. (n) What then happens almost instantly is the insulation on the loom's Red wires connected to battery +ve starts to melt. Lucas never built a loom with the Red wires connected as in your photo. above ...

Most useful would be:-

. replace the snap connector in your photo with one with more connections;

. reduce the number of wires between the new snap connector and the battery +ve terminal to a single one - connect all other wires currently connected directly to the battery +ve terminal to the new snap connector;

. have the main fuse in the single wire between the new snap connector and the battery +ve terminal, make the new fuse/holder a standard 15A blade fuse, that fuse type are cheaper, more widely available and more reliable than the obsolete glass tube fuses you are using currently.

Because your bike's electrics are "positive earth", fuse in the single wire actually connected to the battery +ve terminal will not only prevent all shorts the existing fuse does, it will also prevent the one I have described that led to a p.o. doing the wiring in your photo. above.

In addition, you can replace the existing obsolete fuse holder and collection of connections and short bits of wire with a new length of Brown/Blue direct from the battery -ve terminal to the existing Brown/Blue wire. Or, if regrettably either the rectifier or Zener diode are the cause of the existing short, their cheaper and more reliable replacement is a modern electronic combined regulator/rectifier, any new Brown/Blue wire can be direct from battery -ve to ignition switch as the existing connections for rectifier and Zener will not be required (loom will not require stripping, new wire can be secured neatly outside the loom :)).

Once the fuse holder is for a blade fuse, you can also consider off the shelf gadgets like this ... :cool:


Yes. They are being supplied through the Rita; assuming the rest of the ignition circuit is standard, the Rita is being supplied from battery -ve through the ignition switch and handlebar kill button; to complete the circuits, Rita +ve (its White/Yellow wire) and the coils' +ves must be connected to battery +ve.

Or are you asking if the Rita White/Yellow wire and the coils' +ves can be connected elsewhere on the bike? Again, improvements I was going to suggest at some stage:-

. The Rita +ve wire should be connected directly to the battery +ve terminal. Any circuit on the bike is from battery -ve to battery +ve; as any circuit is more likely to fail at a connection than within a wire, it does not make any sense electrically to introduce additional connections (e.g. Rita WY to cycle part, cycle part to battery +ve) that do not serve any useful purpose. Additionally, it is not impossible other electrical components connected to cycle or engine parts could generate electrical 'noise' that could affect the Rita's electronics; if the Rita +ve wire is connected directly to the battery +ve terminal, the chances of 'noise' from any other component affecting it are reduced.

. I connect coil +ve terminals to the loom's existing Red wires. In this case, connecting to cycle parts usually results in an unprotected connection, which can be affected by corrosion in the future. Otoh, insulated wire and connection from coil +ve to loom's existing Red wires at one of the existing bullet snap connectors is more weather-proof.

You should also ensure there is a loom Red wire connected to an engine component, one of the cylinder head bolts or studs through a rocker box? Reason is, coil with a single HT lead, while the coil's HT terminal is connected to one end of the HT windings, the other end of those HT windings are connected to a primary terminal - +ve in Lucas coils. The HT 'earths' through the spark plug's mounting on the cylinder head, loom Red wire connected to an engine fastener ensures a discrete and visible return path from the head to the coil +ve terminal.

"The Rita +ve wire should be connected directly to the battery +ve terminal" - in order both to protect specifically the Rita and the advised connection does not negate my earlier advice to connect only one fused wire to battery +ve, I fit a low Amps fuse in the Rita supply - e.g. where the Rita -ve Black wire is connected to the handlebar kill button White/Yellow wire. Rita supplying coils in series, so drawing 3A~3.5A, I fit a 5A or 7.5A blade fuse in the Rita supply; any problem in the ignition circuit, this will provide better protection than the 15A main fuse.


Ime, I would not discount the possibility either rectifier or Zener have failed coincidentally. :( It is a matter of moments to disconnect rectifier and Zener Brown/Blue connections before beginning testing then reconnect them after connecting Voltmeter in place of fuse and reconnecting battery?
So I have removed one of the reds, the battery mate lead (for simplicity) and followed the brown/blue wire (NU code) which goes from fuse to this thing which I initially thought was an earth post. There is one immediately below and this too elaborate for an earth. The NU wire goes to a double spade on this item, the other NU wire goes back to the switch double spade. The other NU on this switch connector disappears off to the multi plate rectifier.
At all key positions my bulb comes on.
 

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Just read this article. Sounds just like my problem.

https://www.other forum/threads/run...ted-from-its-proper-mounting-position.179404/
CRACKED IT!!!!

Just unbolted the diode and hey presto the test bulb only comes on at key position left, right x1 & right x2.

I'm so happy and I couldn’t have done it without you guys. Fantastic!
Can you tell I’m pleased??
 

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