'72TR6RV
Well-Known Member
I did notice the hole closest to the front was plugged with some sort of debris....
Hard starting TR6RV
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Pleased to hear it was just a slipping clutch. I see from your photos that the friction plates are showing signs of minor damage from sticking which is to be expected from a bike that hasn't been used for a long period. If cost isn't an issue I would suggest fitting new friction pad plates to ensure a long and happy life for the clutch. Others may disagree but when Triumph changed to engine oil supplying the primary drive I think it was a retrograde step as it no longer gives the choice of what primary oil to use. I suspect it was done to match the easier servicing offered by the new Japanese bikes rather than because it was mechanically better. For example, many owners use the red automatic car gearbox oil in the primary. The reason again is the lack of friction inhibitors as commonly used in most modern engine oil. Think about a normal manual gearbox car clutch, it doesn't run in any oil whatsoever. The primary oil in the Triumph is used mainly to lubricate the chain. This is why Triumph an indicator drain hole to keep the oil level as low as possible so as not to flood the clutch.
It is important to use the this level plug when filling the Primary case with the older bikes that don't share engine oil to ensure the correct level. You will discover it really is not a lot of oil. As you have the later bike with primary oil shared with the engine I would not recommend Valvoline. I am a great fan of Valvoline (they sponsored me when I raced cars) but this a great oil designed for modern cars not older bikes.
You should always use specific motorcycle oil even for modern bikes for the same reason that most, but not all, modern bikes use a wet clutch. For a dry clutch think noisy rattly Ducati clutch. I use an engine oil specifically formulated for old style bike engines. No friction inhibitors or detergents and friendly to bronze bushing. Why no cleaning agents which surely must be a great idea for an engine?
Your Triumph is designed to collect oil sludge and gunk inside the crank itself (no modern style oil filter). This is ok until you throw in modern oil with cleaning agents that dislodges all this accumulated muck and metal particles etc. This is going to be a very bad idea. Use engine oil specifically designed for 40's, 50's and 60's engines. Your engine will like it and so will your clutch. The lack of a modern oil filter is the reason we should change Triumph engine oil about every 1500 miles, which seems ridiculous now. Back in the day my Triumph spewed out so much oil changes were rendered rather pointless. The lack of modern sealents back then made it impossible to stop my Triumph leaking oil. Now my Bonneville is completely oil tight so yes I change engine oil every 1500 miles and use a modern oil formulated for old bikes. I'm guessing but did your clutch slipping problem happen after you started using Valvoline?
This is is a much condensed version of information I have accumulated on oil by reading a multitude of articles written by both oil experts and other classic bike owners. Of course others may have a different view but it made logical sense to me so this is the information I now follow. I'm hoping I never get to confirm my theories by having to strip my engine for any reason but being a Triumph I think this somewhat unlikely! Although built like a tractor they still somehow manage to be finickity and demanding. You don't own a Triumph, you live with it.
'72TR6RV
Well-Known Member
Just wanted to thank everyone who took the time to read and respond to my questions about my clutch. I find these old bikes interesting yet enjoyable to work on.....like the back to basics engineering these were built on. Wish the equipment I work on daily was still like that. Friends say that I need to get a new bike......hogwash, when their bike let's them sitting there is very little they can do themselves with all the modern electronics.
Will keep y'all posted on the outcome after I get the adjustments made and the primary sealed up.
Will keep y'all posted on the outcome after I get the adjustments made and the primary sealed up.
'72TR6RV
Well-Known Member
Come to think of it.....after I started using the Valvoline is when I noticed a little slippage....good note to remember!
As for the sludge trap.....that's what I'm a little worried about with the newer oils. On the 76 T140 I'm rebuilding, the sludge trap was about plugged over. Its turned into one of those projects.....I'm this far into it might as well do it right. All new bottom end minis the camshaft bushings which measured the same as new. I need to update progress on that thread one day.
When I get the Bonneville done, it's time to tear down ole blue and go through it like I am the Bonneville.
Thanks Twin
No problem, if it helps that's great. I suppose once you confirm the sludge trap is completely clean then logically you could use more modern cleaning oil. My concern is that all the muck now collecting safely in the sludge trap would then remain suspended in the oil. The gauze filter in the tank would be about as useful a soup strainer in removing harmful particles. I think you would need to fit a modern oil filter to be safe. Being a purist I will stick with regular oil changes rather than have a non standard bike. The sludge trap is also my worry. Like most owners I know little about the history, genuine mileage or how often my bike had an oil change or even if the engine has been stripped previously. I suspect it has but when and what was done is a complete mystery. Without dismantling the entire engine there is no way to check the trap. A really bad design fault in my opinion but we are stuck with it. Just how long does it take before the sludge trap fills and blocks the con rod big end bearing oil ways leading to a big bang? I have never found any information suggesting how long it may take for the sludge trap to need cleaning or to entirely block, either from Triumph or personal experience from owners. Anyone out there with any thoughts or first hand knowledge?
I don't have any information about how long it takes for the sludge trap to need attention.
From my own experience, when I rebuilt my 1970 T100 I found the sludge trap packed solid. It was as hard as a bullet and took some work to get it completely clean. I bought it in 1995 as a running bike, but I had no idea of its history. I bit the bullet and took the engine apart and I'm glad I did. It needed everything.
I fitted a spin-on oil filter which sits up under the engine out of sight. Combined with a clean sludge trap and the oil filter I won't have to tear down the engine for a very long time - maybe never since it gets only a few hundred miles a year.
From my own experience, when I rebuilt my 1970 T100 I found the sludge trap packed solid. It was as hard as a bullet and took some work to get it completely clean. I bought it in 1995 as a running bike, but I had no idea of its history. I bit the bullet and took the engine apart and I'm glad I did. It needed everything.
I fitted a spin-on oil filter which sits up under the engine out of sight. Combined with a clean sludge trap and the oil filter I won't have to tear down the engine for a very long time - maybe never since it gets only a few hundred miles a year.
'72TR6RV
Well-Known Member
The T140 I'm currently resurrecting, the sludge trap was also packed full of crud. Like yourself, I'm glad I decided to crack the case open and check the bottom end.
Curious about the oil filter you described. I posted in another thread about which to use. I see a filter kit from a Norton that mounts close to what you are describing. Have you had any issues with it? I also found a magnet that will fit on top of the screen in the frame quite nicely. CAT P/N 8M-7160. Call your area Caterpillar Dealer to purchase one. It's like $5 or $6
Just to help catch and ferrous material.
Thanks everyone, very useful to know they obviously clog up quite quickly. Does anyone know what happens if it isn't cleaned out? I'm only guessing but I presume that it would restrict oil to the big ends (UK name for the con rods crank bearings) with serious consequences. I haven't investigated this yet. Anyone had it happen?
I think this is a great subject to discuss as I suspect there could be owners unaware of the sludge trap existence. I certainly can't remember if I knew about it back when first had a Triumph.
As my Bonneville shows signs of modern heat resistant grey sealent around all the casing joints I am going to take the risk the engine has been stripped by someone who knew what they doing. Compression on both cylinders are 140 psi cold which I think is considered good. It would be annoying to strip the engine and discover a full rebuild was done just a few hundred miles ago. Prepared to take the risk but if anyone has experienced it first hand I would love to know. Cheers.
I think this is a great subject to discuss as I suspect there could be owners unaware of the sludge trap existence. I certainly can't remember if I knew about it back when first had a Triumph.
As my Bonneville shows signs of modern heat resistant grey sealent around all the casing joints I am going to take the risk the engine has been stripped by someone who knew what they doing. Compression on both cylinders are 140 psi cold which I think is considered good. It would be annoying to strip the engine and discover a full rebuild was done just a few hundred miles ago. Prepared to take the risk but if anyone has experienced it first hand I would love to know. Cheers.
'72TR6RV
Well-Known Member
With the T140 I'm rebuilding I noticed that the conrods would drag on the crankshaft and hang up when. Case was still together and the jugs removed. Rods at top of travel, they would not move freely, kind of sticky.
When I cracked the case open I found a bunch of crud in the bottom. When I removed the plug to the sludge tube, the tube was full of crud and into the rod journals.
So yes definitely a clogged sludge tube will restrict oil flow to the rod bearings.
By luck, the journals polished up very nice with 2000 grit paper and oil with no scoring of the surface.
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'72TR6RV
Well-Known Member
Thanks 7. Very useful information including the photos. Yours was obviously running dry prior to the strip. Hopefully this means they get a certain amount of splash lubrication and that there may be some prior warning of impending doom (presuming you are not teararsing along at full revs in top gear). Only tried this theory twice. Once on a new chainsaw when I forgot to add 2 stroke oil to the fuel which promptly seized and an original Honda ST 70 mini bike which used up all its engine oil and started to seize. Both recovered fine when they cooled down and oil was added. Fingers crossed a Triumph maybe just as forgiving. I have to say the sludge trap is very clever in conception but incredibly stupid from a practical sense. A complete engine strip every 15,000 to 20,000 miles. Could you imagine trying to sell that service period today with the huge cost involved?
At the risk of making this thread longer than a Star Wars series I did come across an interesting thought. The sludge trap accumulates particles from the oil by centrifugal force (talking of the Big Bang Sheldon would say Centrifical). The trap works because the larger inner diameter of the trap slows the oil sufficiently for the particulates to part friends from the oil. This force occurs only because the trap itself is off centre to the centerline of the crank. But here is the point, as the sludge trap fills surely the very clever Mr Turner calculated the point at which the oil departs the sludge trap and flows through the centre line of the crank and into the big ends. At this centreline oil passage into the crank there will be no centrifugal force. My thought is that the sludge trap will only fill with crap to a certain point and, if designed correctly, to a point before the crud blocks the centre oilway where there is no centrifugal force to separate out any further crud. So, the trap is full and over time this gets packed harder and harder into the trap tube which is what most owners report finding. But can it ever physically block the oh so important oilway to the big ends or does all future particulates in the oil simply remain suspended in the oil and yes, progressively cause internal damage thorough out the whole engine? The photos from 7 of worn big end shells and crank journals may simply show an engine that had oil starvation for any number of reasons, the most common with leaky Triumphs is failing to top up the oil tank during or after a long ride. Not having a crank in front of me its hard to be sure if this theory is correct. Has anyone ever honestly pulled a crank apart to find that the vital centre oil passageway was actually blocked by sludge trap debris? If this theory is correct then the crud would appear to come dangerously close to the oilway but never actually be able to block it.
This would make sense since Mrs Turner had a very clever son and most engines are stripped sooner or later to replace worn main bearings (another weak point) and gosh, what lucky timing, my sludge trap is almost full! Yes, but aren't they always almost full by clever design? One thing is for sure, very regular oil changes with the correct type oil is the best protection against sludge build up. If the trap is already full then regular fresh oil prevents any harmful build up in the oil and the crank is still safe. I hope.
This would make sense since Mrs Turner had a very clever son and most engines are stripped sooner or later to replace worn main bearings (another weak point) and gosh, what lucky timing, my sludge trap is almost full! Yes, but aren't they always almost full by clever design? One thing is for sure, very regular oil changes with the correct type oil is the best protection against sludge build up. If the trap is already full then regular fresh oil prevents any harmful build up in the oil and the crank is still safe. I hope.
The spin-on oil filter kit I have is the Norton-type you mention. They are probably available through most parts dealers.
From all reports, and from my own experience, they are very effective.
On the T100 it was easy to fit it up under the gearbox out of sight using a home-made bracket, but that may not be so easy on some models.
I have first hand experience with my '68 TR6R. When I bought the bike as a rolling chassis, I was told the bottom end had been rebuilt. I told GrandPaul not to bother with the bottom end when he was rebuilding the bike for me. Severl hundfred miles later, I took the bike to the North Carolina mountains (alomg with my 03 T100) for a week of ridinmg with friends. I came in one afternoon and it was spewing oil all over the place. To make a long story short, one of my friends, who also owns a '68 Bonnie, hooked me up with his mechanic in Raleigh. I took the bike to him and the sludge trap was completely plugged up. I coluld have avoided this and the extra cost if I hasd let GP crack the cases and look at tha bottom end. For my money, it is not worth the risk. I would crack the cases ans check it out. GrandPaul can verify this!
Thanks Carl. It kinda confirms what I have been thinking. I have yet to read a case where a Triumph engine is stripped and the sludge trap isn't full, yet I have not read anyone stripping their engine as a result of big end seizure.
Of course it will have happened to someone but it seems to be extremely rare going on all the posts I have read. If your bike was spewing oil only because the crank big end oilways were blocked did the big ends seize? From my experience a big end will usually seize within seconds of no oil supply. Perhaps there was also another problem or blockage that went unnoticed when the engine was stripped and being correctly re assembled cured the problem of over pressurisation in the crankcase? It could be the previous owner may have been telling the truth about overhauling the bottom end. as I said previously I have done a crank replacement when I was 17 on my pre unit Thunderbird. I don't ever remember removing the sludge trap before fitting the replacement (old) crankshaft. Not sure I was aware of the need to clean the trap.
This is my point, now they are valuable classics its seems every Triumph engine stripped reports a full sludge trap. My old Thunderbird was an unused bike sitting in a shed when my older brother bought it. He rode it for two years as daily transport. I then rode it as daily transport for a further year and half. The sludge trap was never touched. All my friends rode these type of bikes yet big end seizures were never mentioned.
It just seems odd that in 2019 Triumph engines have this problem when 50 years ago I can't remember it being an issue. Was Turner really that cavalier or silly to knowingly put a device in the engine that would become a ticking time bomb? Of course you should clean it during an engine strip but should you strip the engine just to clean the sludge trap? There seems to be no mention whatsoever from Triumph servicing about regular sludge trap cleaning which seems odd if it so vital to the health of the engine. My engineers brain naturally rebels against the idea that such a smart man as Turner and Triumph who basically built this same engine for a very long time would make such a fundamental mistake without changing it.
Owners now seem to baby these bikes in a way we never did when we rode them as everyday transport yet it was normally silly little things that let you down and usually parts that had LUCAS written on them.
As I said in an earlier post I was not kidding when I said it was incredible to think that a bike built in rainy old England took almost no steps to waterproof anything. The engine although rattly and leaking oil like a bucket with a hole in it was in fact pretty reliable by the standards of the day.
I shall make it my goal to discover the truth about the sludge trap. Was it the Reverend in the library with a lead pipe? My apologies to anyone who doesn't find the whole subject of sludge traps as interesting as I must do. As the saying goes, little things please little minds!
Of course it will have happened to someone but it seems to be extremely rare going on all the posts I have read. If your bike was spewing oil only because the crank big end oilways were blocked did the big ends seize? From my experience a big end will usually seize within seconds of no oil supply. Perhaps there was also another problem or blockage that went unnoticed when the engine was stripped and being correctly re assembled cured the problem of over pressurisation in the crankcase? It could be the previous owner may have been telling the truth about overhauling the bottom end. as I said previously I have done a crank replacement when I was 17 on my pre unit Thunderbird. I don't ever remember removing the sludge trap before fitting the replacement (old) crankshaft. Not sure I was aware of the need to clean the trap.
This is my point, now they are valuable classics its seems every Triumph engine stripped reports a full sludge trap. My old Thunderbird was an unused bike sitting in a shed when my older brother bought it. He rode it for two years as daily transport. I then rode it as daily transport for a further year and half. The sludge trap was never touched. All my friends rode these type of bikes yet big end seizures were never mentioned.
It just seems odd that in 2019 Triumph engines have this problem when 50 years ago I can't remember it being an issue. Was Turner really that cavalier or silly to knowingly put a device in the engine that would become a ticking time bomb? Of course you should clean it during an engine strip but should you strip the engine just to clean the sludge trap? There seems to be no mention whatsoever from Triumph servicing about regular sludge trap cleaning which seems odd if it so vital to the health of the engine. My engineers brain naturally rebels against the idea that such a smart man as Turner and Triumph who basically built this same engine for a very long time would make such a fundamental mistake without changing it.
Owners now seem to baby these bikes in a way we never did when we rode them as everyday transport yet it was normally silly little things that let you down and usually parts that had LUCAS written on them.
As I said in an earlier post I was not kidding when I said it was incredible to think that a bike built in rainy old England took almost no steps to waterproof anything. The engine although rattly and leaking oil like a bucket with a hole in it was in fact pretty reliable by the standards of the day.
I shall make it my goal to discover the truth about the sludge trap. Was it the Reverend in the library with a lead pipe? My apologies to anyone who doesn't find the whole subject of sludge traps as interesting as I must do. As the saying goes, little things please little minds!
'72TR6RV
Well-Known Member
The sludge trap is actually a genius idea but stupid application when you cant service it. Triumph is not the only one to use this method. Norton's, MotoGuzzi and of corse BSA. But also in the 1940s Ford and Mercury used them in their flathead engines.....again not serviceable. Again in those days the bearing tolerance was a lot different and the oil passages were a lot bigger. It's a good theory to use centrifugal force to separate the particles of dirt, dust, metal etc from the oil. As far as a trap becoming completely plugged, I'm not sure if it can as long as there is oil pressure coming from the pump into the end of the crankshaft, the pressure will keep the passage somewhat open but not healthy.
I'm thinking like in the winter......for some of us who grew up or still live in the northern areas where pipes can freeze. As long as you keep water moving even a trickle....your chances of freezing solid reduce. Same with oil pressure through the sludge trap.
I had no seizure; just spewing oil. I think back in the day, we rode these machines and didn't baby them. We did not let them sit for extended periods of time with old oil. I have no idea how long my engine sat without being cranked ad ridden. I had a couple of 650's back in the '60's and had no problems. I had no reason to crack the cases and check the sludge trap.
7 and Carl, unlike Trump and China, I think we are in complete agreement. I am convinced more than ever that the fear of a complete blockage is anecdotal rather than there being any real evidence that a sludge trap could cause complete engine meltdown. There were a heck of a lot of Triumphs out there, especially in the States. I think we would have heard more about this if it was in fact a common problem. I grew up in the North of England, solid followed by burst water pipes was quite normal. Then the world got a little hotter! Sorry, no, I apologise, forget I just said that. I am already to blame for taking a thread about poor starting into a mammoth discussion on sludge traps. I have no wish to take into a climate change discussion.
Carbon neutral I promise! I hug a tree every time I ride my Triumph although as climate change wasn't invented when my bike was built maybe it doesn't apply?
Carbon neutral I promise! I hug a tree every time I ride my Triumph although as climate change wasn't invented when my bike was built maybe it doesn't apply?
'72TR6RV
Well-Known Member
Hahahaha....
So what's the deal with Lucas electronics? Do they not like moisture? I only take ole blue out on fair weather days so haven't had the liberty to experience any issues with moisture.
The electrical system on Brit bikes ans automobiles were notoriously known for problems and the electrical components were made by Lucas - the Prince of Darkness. In reality, the Lucas components were pretty good. It was shoddy workmanship (poor connections,bas soldering, etc) the caused the electrical problems. Other than bulbs burinig out,I never had electrical problems with my 1966 TR6 back in the day. Now my MGB was a different story.
When restoring a vintage Brit bike, new wiring usually eliminates the electrical problems. I finallyrewired my MGB and that solved the problems. Using dielectric grease on connections helps eliminate moisture problems and corrosion. This applies to modern bikes also.
