Hard starting TR6RV

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'72TR6RV

Well-Known Member
Took ole blue out yesterday for a spin and had no issues starting or running but did notice when I turned the throttle on in 3rd and 4th gear the clutch started to slip. This morning tried starting it and it was as if the clutch was slipping against the engine compression and wouldn't fire. Could the clutch be slipping when trying to kick it over?
 

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I do not know hoe experienced you are with vintage Triumphs; so please do not be insulted if you already know and do this. The clutch should not be involeved when starting the engine with the tranny in neutral. Vintage Triumph clutches are notorious for sticking. When starting my TR6R, I make sure the tranny is in nuetral. I then pull in the clutch lever, and with the key OFF, I kick start it until there is no resistance, that is, the cliutch is free. I then turn the ignition on, tickle the carb and start the bike.
 
I do not know hoe experienced you are with vintage Triumphs; so please do not be insulted if you already know and do this. The clutch should not be involeved when starting the engine with the tranny in neutral. Vintage Triumph clutches are notorious for sticking. When starting my TR6R, I make sure the tranny is in nuetral. I then pull in the clutch lever, and with the key OFF, I kick start it until there is no resistance, that is, the cliutch is free. I then turn the ignition on, tickle the carb and start the bike.
No offence taken....and appreciate all responses. Not alot of experience with the old British bikes just since I bought this one from my uncle a couple years back. He said the clutches tend to stick a little at times and go through the same procedure you mentioned and it always fired on the first or second kick. But now it feels like something is dragging when kicked over. Pull in the clutch and operate the kick lever everything is free meaning the engine dont turn over. Release the clutch and can feel resistance from the engine but acts like something is dragging. Times I can hear the intake and exhaust stroke and times there is nothing.
Was thinking that when transmission in neutral that the clutch was the connection between the primary and the crankshaft and if the clutch is wore or loose the compression of the engine could be more than what the clutch can handle giving the amount of force through the gear reduction of the starter gear.....or am I over thinking things? Just going by how I see the parts assembly of the T140 engine I'm going through.
 
Might fine looking bike! TUP
Thanks! Spent a lot of time polishing the aluminum.....only has 17000 miles. My uncle found it in a garage and picked it up. Him and my dad had Triumphs back in the 60s and 70s. Uncle still has a 71 BSA lighting and a Triumph / BSA B50
500 single MX bike. Not alot of them made.
 
Could be you have stripped the shear key on the mainshaft. I'd say that's the most likely problem, based on the symptoms "dragging when kicking, but not engaging the engine"

Hopefully, it's an easier fix: it COULD be the clutch plate pressure springs may be too loose, and/or the friction plates have simply worn out all the friction material.

That is my long-distance, hands-off, virtual diagnostic.

At a minimum, you do need to run through the full cable adjustment procedure.

If that fails, you have no choice but to remove the cover and adjust the springs.

If THAT fails, it's down into the hub. If it refuses to come off, take extra care not to break it, as they are expensive to replace. You should use the special threaded puller, NOT a 3-jaw vice. (Don't ask how I learned this). $20 for the tool is less than $50 for a new hub.
 
Could be you have stripped the shear key on the mainshaft. I'd say that's the most likely problem, based on the symptoms "dragging when kicking, but not engaging the engine"

Hopefully, it's an easier fix: it COULD be the clutch plate pressure springs may be too loose, and/or the friction plates have simply worn out all the friction material.

That is my long-distance, hands-off, virtual diagnostic.

At a minimum, you do need to run through the full cable adjustment procedure.

If that fails, you have no choice but to remove the cover and adjust the springs.

If THAT fails, it's down into the hub. If it refuses to come off, take extra care not to break it, as they are expensive to replace. You should use the special threaded puller, NOT a 3-jaw vice. (Don't ask how I learned this). $20 for the tool is less than $50 for a new hub.
A sheared key is not what I wanted to hear! Hahaha
I'm hoping too that the springs are either loose or the friction plates are toast. Either way looks like I got another project for the upcoming weekends. Thanks for the advise on the tooling. I purchased the tooling for the clutch when I disassembled my T140 engine, I'm assuming it's probably the same tool.
Thanks for the pointers and long distance diagnosis. Will be sure to repost what I find when I get a chance to pull the cover.
 
It sounds to me like you need a clutch adjustment - and that could also mean that you may have to pull the cover and take a look at the plates and everything in there.
Pretty hard to diagnose without being there.
I'm hoping that's all it is. Have noticed in the past year when I took it out that going up hills the clutch tends to slip a little. I only put about 250 miles on it in the past year.
 
I purchased the tooling for the clutch when I disassembled my T140 engine, I'm assuming it's probably the same tool.
I'm not positive, but they might be two different threads; they changed around '68, can't remember and no longer have my resource books on hand.

AVOID THE TEMPTATION TO TRY TO USE THE TOOL ONLY GRABBING THE FIRST THREAD OR TWO!!!!

The only possible "good" thing is, if the shear key IS stripped, you won't need the tool to remove the hub!

You will most likely need to dress the Morse taper on the mainshaft, if the bike ran very much with the key stripped. Also have a very close look at the inner tapered bore of the hub, because it will have similar abuse by the shaft it was mated to with the stripped key spinning around in there.
 
I'm not positive, but they might be two different threads; they changed around '68, can't remember and no longer have my resource books on hand.

AVOID THE TEMPTATION TO TRY TO USE THE TOOL ONLY GRABBING THE FIRST THREAD OR TWO!!!!

The only possible "good" thing is, if the shear key IS stripped, you won't need the tool to remove the hub!

You will most likely need to dress the Morse taper on the mainshaft, if the bike ran very much with the key stripped. Also have a very close look at the inner tapered bore of the hub, because it will have similar abuse by the shaft it was mated to with the stripped key spinning around in there.
Thanks Grandpaul for the what to look for once I get inside. Hopefully this being a long weekend I can pull away from the honey do list and pull the primary cover and take a look see at what might be going on. I'm hoping that the clutch is loose....
 
Took ole blue out yesterday for a spin and had no issues starting or running but did notice when I turned the throttle on in 3rd and 4th gear the clutch started to slip. This morning tried starting it and it was as if the clutch was slipping against the engine compression and wouldn't fire. Could the clutch be slipping when trying to kick it over?
Absolutely your clutch slipping would make it impossible to kick start your bike. This is the balancing act we always have with the Triumph. Adjust the clutch too much so it doesn't slip and you can get crunchy gear changes or it can be so bad it won't engage first gear from a stand still. Go the other way and adjust the cable to get too much opening (releasing) movement on the clutch plates and it slips and renders the kick start useless. If it started slipping on a ride and you had changed absolutely nothing, including adding or changing oil, I would guess that your clutch plates are worn and need replacing. Fully slacken off the clutch cable with the bike in neutral and see if the kickstart engages the engine. If it doesn't turn over the engine the answer is either worn clutch or the wrong oil. Your bike could be sharing clutch and engine oil. My 67 does not share engine oil but this was changed by Triumph in later models and any year could have been changed by a previous owner as its a very simple mod. What does this mean to you? Using modern engine oil with friction inhibitors are exactly what you don't want near a Triumph clutch. A Triumph clutch needs all the friction it can get! Removing the spark plugs will also help to diagnose the problem. With no compression, even with a dodgy clutch, the engine should turn over. This would then confirm it is simply a slipping clutch problem. Not a big or expensive job for a reasonable mechanic.
There are newer style clutches for your Triumph with thinner plates but with one extra plate. They are supposed to work better. I prefer originality but its a personal choice. I would recommend buying the best quality plates available. Triumph clutches are always marginal at best. Another little hint to just save money- even though the primary chain tensioner may appear worn it may not need changing. The outside links of the chain wear down the rubber quite quickly but once down to the chain rollers there is very little further wear. As with most Triumph owners when you have it stripped for one job check everything else at the same time. Condition of the sprocket teeth, duplex chain, clutch plates and springs etc. Also be very careful when re fitting the front sprocket on the crank splines. My old Thunderbird stripped the splines and needed a new crank. This is the biggest job possible on a Triumph engine. At least mine was a pre unit which is actually slightly easier than a unit engine. From my experience if there is any looseness of the sprocket on the splines then at least try a brand new sprocket and pray this helps!! At 17 years old with modest means I cried for week when my crank splines completely stripped, especially as it was my daily transport to work. I guarantee any play will ultimately cause a catastrophic failure.
As always with a classic Triumph good luck and happy spannering.
 
Absolutely your clutch slipping would make it impossible to kick start your bike. This is the balancing act we always have with the Triumph. Adjust the clutch too much so it doesn't slip and you can get crunchy gear changes or it can be so bad it won't engage first gear from a stand still. Go the other way and adjust the cable to get too much opening (releasing) movement on the clutch plates and it slips and renders the kick start useless. If it started slipping on a ride and you had changed absolutely nothing, including adding or changing oil, I would guess that your clutch plates are worn and need replacing. Fully slacken off the clutch cable with the bike in neutral and see if the kickstart engages the engine. If it doesn't turn over the engine the answer is either worn clutch or the wrong oil. Your bike could be sharing clutch and engine oil. My 67 does not share engine oil but this was changed by Triumph in later models and any year could have been changed by a previous owner as its a very simple mod. What does this mean to you? Using modern engine oil with friction inhibitors are exactly what you don't want near a Triumph clutch. A Triumph clutch needs all the friction it can get! Removing the spark plugs will also help to diagnose the problem. With no compression, even with a dodgy clutch, the engine should turn over. This would then confirm it is simply a slipping clutch problem. Not a big or expensive job for a reasonable mechanic.
There are newer style clutches for your Triumph with thinner plates but with one extra plate. They are supposed to work better. I prefer originality but its a personal choice. I would recommend buying the best quality plates available. Triumph clutches are always marginal at best. Another little hint to just save money- even though the primary chain tensioner may appear worn it may not need changing. The outside links of the chain wear down the rubber quite quickly but once down to the chain rollers there is very little further wear. As with most Triumph owners when you have it stripped for one job check everything else at the same time. Condition of the sprocket teeth, duplex chain, clutch plates and springs etc. Also be very careful when re fitting the front sprocket on the crank splines. My old Thunderbird stripped the splines and needed a new crank. This is the biggest job possible on a Triumph engine. At least mine was a pre unit which is actually slightly easier than a unit engine. From my experience if there is any looseness of the sprocket on the splines then at least try a brand new sprocket and pray this helps!! At 17 years old with modest means I cried for week when my crank splines completely stripped, especially as it was my daily transport to work. I guarantee any play will ultimately cause a catastrophic failure.
As always with a classic Triumph good luck and happy spannering.
Thanks Twin
I took the primary cover off yesterday for a look see.
Went through the S.O.P to start, minus fuel and fire.....Pulled the clutch in and kicked it over to release the clutch.
Then released the lever and kicked it over while taking notice of the crankshaft movement. It would turn then stop and the clutch was still moving.
Took out the clutch plates and they look good, a bit on the dry side though. Didnt get much oil when I pulled the primary cover. Checked the hub and basket all seems and looks fine. Bike only has 17,000 original miles....(thanks to the owner before my uncle storing it in his garage for 25 or more years)....any how....
Reassemble clutch and tighten the springs about 1-1/2 turns. Kicked it over again which this time the crankshaft turned the same as the clutch.
Ordered a new gasket.....in mean time I need to go through the complete clutch cable adjustment and pressure plate wobble adjustment.
As for oil, I changed it last season and used Valvoline 20w-50.
Should I be using a straight weight oil? I'm hoping that the lack of sufficient oil level was a culprit as well.
 

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Valvoline 20w-50.
Should I be using a straight weight oil?
No. Any '70-on twin vents the crankcase through the primary case to atmosphere. So the same oil must be in both.

hoping that the lack of sufficient oil level was a culprit as well.
No "culprit". In order to ensure oil droplets condensing in the primary from crank venting don't raise the primary oil level to where the main bearing drags in it and power is reduced, there are (usually) three small holes between primary and crankcase behind the alternator stator. Therefore, these set the primary oil level; only enough oil for the primary chain to dip the bottom run is required.
 
In order to ensure oil droplets condensing in the primary from crank venting don't raise the primary oil level to where the main bearing drags in it and power is reduced, there are (usually) three small holes between primary and crankcase behind the alternator stator. Therefore, these set the primary oil level; only enough oil for the primary chain to dip the bottom run is required.
Also good to point out that these three holes can CLOG, resulting in incorrect oil level in the primary. Make sure to poke them clear with a needle or piece of wire.
 
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