'77 T140 Not Pumping Oil After Change

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MarcJG

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I have a '77 T140V that I purchased a little more than a year ago. The previous owner had went over everything mechanically and replaced most hoses, gaskets, seals, and fluids. My first oil change was last fall and I drained the oil from the drain plug in the sump; the oil was in rather good condition so I did not bother removing the plate. I refilled the tank, started it up, and checked that I was getting return oil, which I was.

I just changed my oil for the second time yesterday, drained from the plug, removed the plate, removed the filter (which was damaged and I did not replace). I made a new gasket and reinstalled the sump plate. I then drained the small amount of oil from the engine, checked the filter (which was perfectly clear), and replaced. Finally I changed the cartridge type filter that the previous owner had installed on the bike. I then refilled the tank, kicked it over a few times, and started it up for a couple minutes. The oil return spit out a small amount of oil then proceeded to pump out air bubbles. I shut off the bike, primed the sump by pouring 200cc (roughly) through the rocker cover, and started it back up. The bike pumped oil until those 200cc were used up and then proceeded to blow air/oil bubbles again. I did ride it around the block once to see if that would help get the oil moving and pumping, no such luck.

Currently I have a oil pressure light on when the bike is running and the pump is only pumping air. I am at a loss as my knowledge has been exhausted, any help is greatly appreciated. Obviously I am not running or riding the bike at the moment.
 
Re-charging a new oil filter that is not first filled with oil before installing, means it will take some minutes to show return oil.

Not to worry, your crank is getting oil from the pum, the pump is drawing it from the frame reservoir (not the filter). Filter is on the return side.
 
I wish it was due to the new filter but I don't believe it is. The cartridge filter is in a somewhat difficult place to access so I originally did not change it as the oil was still in good condition and I doubted the filter needed to be changed. After this issue originally popped up, I decided to change the filter too.

I currently have the oil drained from the bike. I took the hose off the sump plate to see if there was possibly a old piece of gasket blocking something; I had good flow from the plate and the hose. Checked the oil pressure relief valve and cleaned it; wasn't really necessary as it was in good condition. The OPRV is missing the cylinder however if that was really an issue it should've popped up long before now. Will check the sensor next, then probably remove the oil pump and check that.
 
Yes, I do. Is that something that can be easily made at home or would you recommend purchasing a new OPRV?

Any idea why that would not cause an issue until now? (assuming it is the issue)
 
It was missing all along?

Should be there, or your bypassing lube to the crank, NOT good.

Used OPRVs on e-bay all the time. Anything is better than nothing, as long as it's not jammed.
 
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When I pulled the OPRV off I was in a rush and made a mistake; I expected the piston to be a solid cylinder and not a hollow one so I did not recognize it for what it was.

Yesterday I disassembled the valve and cleaned it all in diesel. The piston popped out with one tap on the bench. Everything seems to be in good shape as there is no dirt or sludge build up. The piston moves "freely", its a snug fit but there is no rust or buildup.

I have the original shop manual by Clymer (published in 1976) that came with the bike and is falling apart. I ordered another manual a couple days ago and it should be here today. I'm hoping the new manual will have a diagram of the oil flow throughout the system. I feel as though the pump is not pulling from the tank at this point.

I reassembled everything last night, filled up the tank to the "min", and put about 200cc into the engine through the rockers. It has been sitting since then as my thought is this will allow the oil time to flow throughout the system and remove any air pockets. I'll fire it up today and report back.
 
You sure you have the two main pipes from the engine in the proper order, and not crossed? THAT would explain it.

I would not run the engine again until certain all was correctly piped, and I'd also "pre-fill" each section of oil hose. Messy, but effective.
 
I'm pretty confident that everything is piped correctly; it has been running fine and with good oil flow/pressure for the past couple years. I did not remove any hoses. I'm looking at the diagram in the workshop manual and it appears as though the line should run from the bottom of the oil tank to the front of the junction box. The oil line leaving the junction box runs from the rear of the box, through the filter, and then up to the splitter that sends the oil to the tank and the top of the engine. That is how the hoses currently run on my bike.

I fired it up for about 30 seconds, good oil flow back to the tank however the oil pressure light stayed on. Its likely that the oil flowing back was just the 200cc that I added through the rockers. I shut it off before the flow stopped as I'm still rather concerned that I may not be getting oil back to the engine.

Assuming that I still have an issue (assuming because the oil pressure light is on) my assumption is that I have a blockage somewhere between the base plate for the tank and the pump. The pump appears to be working fine as it is having no issue sucking oil from the sump.

I'll drain the oil again and remove the line from the tank baseplate to the pump to check for blockages.
 
No blockages that I can find. It appears as though the inlet to the junction box is dry... after removing the hose there was no oil seepage (not that there should be "seepage" but it should be wet in my mind). I do not know how to get oil up into the junction box but I will pre fill that oil line that runs from the baseplate to the junction box (I plan on dumping oil into the tank until oil comes out, then reconnecting the line). I'm also going to check on the filter cartridge to see if it has become oil soaked or not, if not I will attempt to presoak the filter (due the location on the system it is highly unlikely that it is not soaked).

The previous owner had disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled the engine. I vaguely remember him mentioning that he had a hell of a time getting the oil system to pump due to air in the lines. I wish I had bothered to get his contact information.
 
Fill the frame nearly full.

Gravity feed an open receptacle of oil into the oil pump inlet and kick the engine till you get the scavenge pump fitting spitting.

Fill the oil filter & the filter head & lines, then connect to the bike. Fill the rocker feed line and connect it.

If your oil pump is working, the return pipe inside the oil filler cap in the frame should start to spurt almost immediately after it starts. It will STAY spurting, it is NOT a steady stream unless you're turning a couple thousand RPM.
 
Okay. The line running from the baseplate at the bottom of the tank to the inlet on the junction box is full of oil and the tank is full of oil. I accomplished that by disconnecting the line where it enters the junction box, adding oil to the tank until oil came out of the line, and then reconnecting the line to the junction box.

The line running from the T junction at the top of the frame (splits to rockers and oil tank) is filled, that was rather easy to fill. I checked the cartridge filter beforehand and that was good and soaked in oil. I have to assume that if the cartridge filter is wet, and I filled the line above it, the line running from the filter back to to the junction/oil pump is filled as well ( I can see no conceivable way to remove that line and fill it with oil).

The line from the T junction over to the rockers just kept taking oil, I'm assuming that is because it automatically drains back into engine by gravity.

Grandpaul, I'm a little confused by this: "Gravity feed an open receptacle of oil into the oil pump inlet and kick the engine till you get the scavenge pump fitting spitting."

I can't see any way to actually feed oil into the pump due to its placement and the direction of the hoses coming into and leaving the pump; both are lower than the pump. I can kick over the engine a bunch to try to draw some oil through from the tank to the pump. I plan on letting it sit overnight; then tomorrow checking the hose that runs from the cartridge filter to the T junction and the hose for the rockers. If they appear to be low on oil I will refill them.

I see no conceivable way to check the line running from the baseplate on the tank to the junction box; if I remove an end gravity will cause the tank to drain out of the open hose.

Any opinions?
 
Actually, if the tank is full and the lines are full, it's the same as a gravity feed to the pump.

I just like to see the oil through a clear hose, dropping while I kick, guaranteeing that it's running through the pump into the crank.

That brings me to one last thing that should be done during the late stages of engine assembly: hand-fill the crankshaft with oil before installing the timing cover. I'm not suggesting you go back and do this, as the bike was previously running.
 
Removing the timing cover and inspecting the oil pump is the next step; however, timing an engine is something I have not done before and something I am a rather hesitant to do. My greatest fear is that I somehow allowed a contaminant (such as a piece of gasket) to get sucked into the oil pump.

As I see it there are two possibilities as to why I am not drawing oil from the reservoir; the inlet on that side of the pump is blocked or I have an air lock situation.

I need to go check the lines again, kick it over, and try starting it... but I'm a little hesitant at the moment.
 
At this point, go ahead and re-prime the engine through the rockerboxes, about 1/4 cup on the intake side, and 1/4 cup on the exhaust side, let it settle for a minute or two, then start it up and see what you've got. Do not rev it, just left it idle with a fan blowing on the engine. Within 30 seconds you should have a steady series of spurts. Once it's been spurting for 30 seconds, rev it a bit and they should of course speed up with RPMs.

Go for a ride.
 
Seat is currently disassembled, cleaned it off, painting it, and putting on a new cover. Figured this was as good a time as any. Will try starting it however.
 
Reassembled everything today, started up the bike. Pumped well for the first 30 seconds or one minute, steady stream of little spurts. Oil pressure light stayed on the entire time. After about a minute it started spurting mostly air. Same issue as before. Shut it off after about a minute thirty.

My OPRV is missing two fiber washers, that may mean the valve is slightly further in than normal but I doubt it is causing an issue; they weren't on their previously and it was running fine.

Maybe I still have an air lock issue... I'm not really sure. The other thing is a potential blockage on the side of the pump that pulls from the tank. Will start looking into how to remove the timing cover to inspect the oil pump and how to retime the engine.
 

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