Can you pull one spark plug, rest it against the engine for ground and turn the engine over to check for spark?
*Parts Compatibility - TBS 1998
- Thread starter Biiim
- Start date
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OK, check your 'kill switch' position.
Biiim
Well-Known Member
I did. When the kill switch is engaged it does what I said previously and when I turn the kill switch it does its job and gives nothing power.
Biiim
Well-Known Member
The problem is I’m not getting the engine to turn over.
And you have a new battery?
Biiim
Well-Known Member
Yup. Just took it in and had it charged and and verified
The neutral light going out means the battery disappears when the relay to the starter motor closes. That means voltage drops to zero when you push the starter button. For that to occur usually means there is a loose contact to terminal or a faulty ground. If you have check the battery cables are clean and tight, you need to clean the the other end point and retighten, so all positive and negative termination points from the battery are good. Then see what battery voltage does when you hit the starter button and the neutral light goes out.
Here's a partial 95 TBS wiring diagram: When you close the start button on the handlebar that closes the starter relay (pulls the bar up closing the two contact points) putting battery power to the starter positve terminal. The power goes directly from the battery to the starter with the relay shut. Check the relay to starter connections are clean and tight.
Biiim
Well-Known Member
Omg I’ve been riding a cb500f and a ex500r for the past year and neither need clutch engaged to start. It totally turns over. I’m going to hook some fuel and see if she gets going. It’s totally turning over. Amazing and hilarious !!!! It’s the simplest things!
Glad it was simple. Having a schematic helps diagnose this kind of stuff. Here's how I found that:
First the neutral switch is only a path to ground. With engine off, power from the battery goes through the neutral light bulb through the neutral switch to ground to illuminate the light. (i.e. current flow) You see with the clutch switch OUT, there is power to the neutral light when the starter relay is open (deenergized). When you depress the starter button that sends power through the relay coil to ground to close the circuit, which closes the starter contacts and make the starter motor spin. That path for the starter button through the starter relay to ground is only available if the clutch switch is IN. That includes the closed circuit for the neutral light to illuminate the lamp as well. So when you tried to start the engine with the start button while the clutch switch was OUT there was no electrical path to gound from the starter button to starter relay causing the neutral light to extinguish and no action from the starter becuase the circuit was open. Easy peazy.
First the neutral switch is only a path to ground. With engine off, power from the battery goes through the neutral light bulb through the neutral switch to ground to illuminate the light. (i.e. current flow) You see with the clutch switch OUT, there is power to the neutral light when the starter relay is open (deenergized). When you depress the starter button that sends power through the relay coil to ground to close the circuit, which closes the starter contacts and make the starter motor spin. That path for the starter button through the starter relay to ground is only available if the clutch switch is IN. That includes the closed circuit for the neutral light to illuminate the lamp as well. So when you tried to start the engine with the start button while the clutch switch was OUT there was no electrical path to gound from the starter button to starter relay causing the neutral light to extinguish and no action from the starter becuase the circuit was open. Easy peazy.
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Biiim
Well-Known Member
Amazing thank you !
Biiim
Well-Known Member
My gas tank has a little rattle inside and it’s empty and dry. Rust? Can this be blown out and be fine to use or there is an issue. What fuel filters do yall think are best? I’m about to use a diy auxiliary fuel supply to get the engine started and see how the coils are doing.
Those are CV (Constant Velocity) carbs and the slides (that thing blocking the intake throat) is operated by vacuum. First thing to do is test the slide diaphrams (whats under the cap on top) by pushing the slide up with your finger as far up as it will go and then release it. It should snap back down to the position in nthe picture. Do that a couple times to make sure is free to move, push the slide to the top then using the index finger on your other hand cover the large slot at the top and press tight to seal the slot with your finger. Release the slide and now it should very sloooowly lower back to the position you see in the picture. If it falls down like before (under spring pressure) the diaphragms need replaced. Test all three to make sure they are all the same. Get that test done and tell me the results. BTW the throttle cable opens butterflys that are past the slides in the front of the carb. If that tests 
then the carbs can be synchronized, if not then they can't until the diaphrams are replaced.
then the carbs can be synchronized, if not then they can't until the diaphrams are replaced.
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Whatever is loose and rattling around need to come out before proceeding further. If the tank is rusty inside it can be sealed so the rust has no effect on the fuel using Caswell Sealer. It's a simple easy to use product that prevents contamination of the fuel with particulate.
JCooper
Member
You're all over the place. Coils, throttle, kill switch, neutral switch, CB500...
We've covered the throttles in two places now. A good reason to stick to one thread. Did you lift one of the slides and look at the throttle plate?
The bike will start without pulling the clutch, but it has to be in neutral. Otherwise it would lurch forward. I'm sure the CB500 is the same. (Also discussed elsewhere.)
The kill switch is simple to test. If you have 12 volts at the coil + terminals it's on and working.
You said the starter was turning the engine over, then you said it wasn't. Which is it?
The neutral light going out could be a ground problem, related to trying to start the bike with the engine ground not connected. (It should not go out when you press the starter button or when you pull the clutch in, only if you shift the transmission into gear.) Have you verified a good ground between the battery and frame? I assume you've reestablished the engine ground. Fix them first. If your grounds are flaky you'll have all sort of mysterious, confusing problems.
Coils are easy to test. Don't add new parts to the mix unless you know replacing them will be an improvement.
If you decide you need to replace the coils, search the internet for the coil-on-plug modification. Saves money and works better.
Successful troubleshooting, especially successful electrical troubleshooting, requires a logical. methodical, step by step process. Focus on one issue at a time, and don't change things until you understand what is going on.
We've covered the throttles in two places now. A good reason to stick to one thread. Did you lift one of the slides and look at the throttle plate?
The bike will start without pulling the clutch, but it has to be in neutral. Otherwise it would lurch forward. I'm sure the CB500 is the same. (Also discussed elsewhere.)
The kill switch is simple to test. If you have 12 volts at the coil + terminals it's on and working.
You said the starter was turning the engine over, then you said it wasn't. Which is it?
The neutral light going out could be a ground problem, related to trying to start the bike with the engine ground not connected. (It should not go out when you press the starter button or when you pull the clutch in, only if you shift the transmission into gear.) Have you verified a good ground between the battery and frame? I assume you've reestablished the engine ground. Fix them first. If your grounds are flaky you'll have all sort of mysterious, confusing problems.
Coils are easy to test. Don't add new parts to the mix unless you know replacing them will be an improvement.
If you decide you need to replace the coils, search the internet for the coil-on-plug modification. Saves money and works better.
Successful troubleshooting, especially successful electrical troubleshooting, requires a logical. methodical, step by step process. Focus on one issue at a time, and don't change things until you understand what is going on.
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Not by the electrical diagram(s) above. The only way to keep the neutral light on when the starter button is depressed is by pulling the clutch in. Depress the starter with the clutch out and the path to ground is lost. The starter button puts power to the primary side (low power side) of the start relay coil and to complete the circuit has to go through the clutch IN contact, through the neutral light and to ground through the neutral switch. If you turn the ignition on, transmission in neutral the neutral light comes on, then depress the start button with the clutch out and the circuit to ground through the neutral light is lost and the neutral light goes out until the clutch is pulled IN. When Biiim pulled the clutch in with the bike's transmission in neutral the starter engaged and the motor turned over.
And I quote, "Omg I’ve been riding a cb500f and a ex500r for the past year and neither need clutch engaged to start. It totally turns over. I’m going to hook some fuel and see if she gets going. It’s totally turning over. Amazing and hilarious !!!! It’s the simplest things."
One other note. The ONLY Triumph I own (I have 5) that will turn over and start with the clutch OUT with bike in neutral is my 1998 Trophy, the other 4 bikes REQUIRE the clutch pulled in to start the bike. Note they can be started in any gear, kickstand up, and clutch pulled IN.
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JCooper
Member
I don't want to get into a pissing contest here, but I owned a 2004 TBS and still own a 1999 Legend TT and they both have the same interlock wiring and function.
1) The starter interlock is independent of the sidestand switch.
2) if the neutral switch is closed (trans in neutral) the neutral light is grounded regardless of the clutch switch position.
3) ground for the starter relay always passes through the clutch switch. If the clutch lever is out it passes to the neutral switch. If the neutral switch is closed the starter is enabled.
4) If the clutch lever is in, it connects the starter relay directly to ground. This has no effect on the neutral light which is still grounded (or not) by the neutral switch.
The igniter has two "enable" lines. If either one is grounded the igniter is enabled.
One of them is connected to the neutral switch. If the neutral switch is closed the igniter is enabled regardless of the position of the sidestand or clutch lever.
The other is connected to the sidestand switch. If the sidestand is up the igniter is enabled regardless of the condition of the neutral switch. Again, the sidestand switch has no effect on the starter circuit.
If the starter circuit is interacting with the neutral light than that suggests there is a ground problem. The fact that the bike was cranked over without the engine ground cable connected likely resulted in some burnt wiring as the starter current found it's way back to the battery through wiring not intended for starter loads. I once saw a throttle cable catch fire on an aircraft engine with a missing engine ground strap.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
One thing I can say with absolute certainty: at least one of us is mistaken.
[Edit] The diagram in post #71 is correct, and works the way I have described. Trace the wire from the neutral light directly to the neutral switch.
1) The starter interlock is independent of the sidestand switch.
2) if the neutral switch is closed (trans in neutral) the neutral light is grounded regardless of the clutch switch position.
3) ground for the starter relay always passes through the clutch switch. If the clutch lever is out it passes to the neutral switch. If the neutral switch is closed the starter is enabled.
4) If the clutch lever is in, it connects the starter relay directly to ground. This has no effect on the neutral light which is still grounded (or not) by the neutral switch.
The igniter has two "enable" lines. If either one is grounded the igniter is enabled.
One of them is connected to the neutral switch. If the neutral switch is closed the igniter is enabled regardless of the position of the sidestand or clutch lever.
The other is connected to the sidestand switch. If the sidestand is up the igniter is enabled regardless of the condition of the neutral switch. Again, the sidestand switch has no effect on the starter circuit.
If the starter circuit is interacting with the neutral light than that suggests there is a ground problem. The fact that the bike was cranked over without the engine ground cable connected likely resulted in some burnt wiring as the starter current found it's way back to the battery through wiring not intended for starter loads. I once saw a throttle cable catch fire on an aircraft engine with a missing engine ground strap.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
One thing I can say with absolute certainty: at least one of us is mistaken.
[Edit] The diagram in post #71 is correct, and works the way I have described. Trace the wire from the neutral light directly to the neutral switch.
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