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Lost First Gear?
- Thread starter Twin Pots
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Try hanging from a steel beam, use ALDI $69 .oo Chain 1/2 ton Block.
Old Kids Swings Shortened Do the Job.
TT & MGP riders, use a couple of Wide Planks, Nailed like a Door.
6 Milk Crates , 3 x 2 is high enough, and a Wooden Ramp in the Old Days.
Make a couple of Bike Stands, people throw out steel tube all the time in Australia.
Its a throw away society.
Stick weld it is not so easy its so thin.
Them Lifting Ramps , are not that good, to wide with the wheels and all.
....
Note about Norton Commando's. The crank issues.
Pushing the 650 from 59 bhp to 69 bhp and 10.5 : 1 compression was a step to far, but gave it the Jap killing 1/4 mile time.
The Isolastic system was designed with Screw Adjustment for Maintenance and Precision, but was overruled by Money Management. But Incidentally came standard on the Mark III.
The replacement sheet shim system was over complex for monthly maintenance and subject to pollution.
Anyway back to it.
The Crank on the Norton at 6 inch centres , is a 3 part bolt up job. See Utube. For pictures.
And was found to be flexing excessively and the Bearing Cages couldn't cope and broke up.
The fix was a visit from Norton Supervisor to your home , who pulled the engine out , split the cases, replaced the bearing and anything else. Replaced the Engine, gave it a Run and all for Free !
It took about 12 hours , so one per day , 7 days a week.!
All done while living out of a Car, independent of whether you lived in Canada , USA or Europe , including England.
You could , drop it off at a dealer and except for some parts of England, It would be done the same. The exception, being if the Mechanic was Norton Trained.
6000 Combats were fixed this way.
So the Idea that Union Members brought down the company is ..... Shall we Say...stretching the truth.
Go and read a book or 10 , the Info's out there.
Plus , some of us , unfortunately old enough to have smelt the history of the time and dare I say , the politics.
The Lords and Dukes on One side and the Soviets infiltrating on the other. plus the Mini , Morris, British Leyland and Ford on another, Plus Britain Paid for the Ammunition and the Bank Repayments for WW II. And also kept all the Partisans from Breaking the Peace/Piece's , as well as a Nuclear Shield.
Export or Die was the Cry from Prime Minister's and so Iron Heads, Barrels and Flywheels were all Brit Companies could get. All the while , Aluminum was readily available overseas.
Penny Pinchers stop Evolution.
Triumphs were a much better and massively bigger company , and had top engineers. So they made a Jump to Unit Construction, with stronger engines But due to Edward Turner , were unable to get away from the Orangle Peel Piston and Head Shape.
The BSA had a Flat top Piston Crown burnt fuel better.
But the Frames were Crap and Engine Balance Factors were Horrible, and worse than Nortons , but not as bad as an Atlas.
...
But the Man or Women who said , the Norton's , Rods came threw the cases, probable didn't maintain it and had it rebuilt by a Mate.! And just did to many 1/4 Mile winning sprints against Z9's.
But maybe just
storing again, as in a past post.But Norton Commando Engines Won year on year in British and World Sidecar Grass Track Championships and did very well in American Flat Track by Privateers..
But this is a Triumph Website for Triumphs and John Bloor built a New Company and was the Right Man at the Right Time. While all the other European Companies building bikes have all been through the Shareholder and Banks / Hedge fund Mill and are all part of big Car MultiCorporates.
So it does not surprise me that there is a poor supported spare parts system. Because the competition is fierce and to Spread the Wings to far, would be just what the Banks would like.
If you want to see how the trusted leaders of the world powers , stab their own people in the Back. Read the ...... P.....papers......or how the rich hide their wealth and don't pay tax.....bring down government's who want them to!
Paradise PapersTry hanging from a steel beam, use ALDI $69 .oo Chain 1/2 ton Block.
Old Kids Swings Shortened Do the Job.
TT & MGP riders, use a couple of Wide Planks, Nailed like a Door.
6 Milk Crates , 3 x 2 is high enough, and a Wooden Ramp in the Old Days.
Make a couple of Bike Stands, people throw out steel tube all the time in Australia.
Its a throw away society.
Stick weld it is not so easy its so thin.
Them Lifting Ramps , are not that good, to wide with the wheels and all.
....
Note about Norton Commando's. The crank issues.
Pushing the 650 from 59 bhp to 69 bhp and 10.5 : 1 compression was a step to far, but gave it the Jap killing 1/4 mile time.
The Isolastic system was designed with Screw Adjustment for Maintenance and Precision, but was overruled by Money Management. But Incidentally came standard on the Mark III.
The replacement sheet shim system was over complex for monthly maintenance and subject to pollution.
Anyway back to it.
The Crank on the Norton at 6 inch centres , is a 3 part bolt up job. See Utube. For pictures.
And was found to be flexing excessively and the Bearing Cages couldn't cope and broke up.
The fix was a visit from Norton Supervisor to your home , who pulled the engine out , split the cases, replaced the bearing and anything else. Replaced the Engine, gave it a Run and all for Free !
It took about 12 hours , so one per day , 7 days a week.!
All done while living out of a Car, independent of whether you lived in Canada , USA or Europe , including England.
You could , drop it off at a dealer and except for some parts of England, It would be done the same. The exception, being if the Mechanic was Norton Trained.
6000 Combats were fixed this way.
So the Idea that Union Members brought down the company is ..... Shall we Say...stretching the truth.
Go and read a book or 10 , the Info's out there.
Plus , some of us , unfortunately old enough to have smelt the history of the time and dare I say , the politics.
The Lords and Dukes on One side and the Soviets infiltrating on the other. plus the Mini , Morris, British Leyland and Ford on another, Plus Britain Paid for the Ammunition and the Bank Repayments for WW II. And also kept all the Partisans from Breaking the Peace/Piece's , as well as a Nuclear Shield.
Export or Die was the Cry from Prime Minister's and so Iron Heads, Barrels and Flywheels were all Brit Companies could get. All the while , Aluminum was readily available overseas.
Penny Pinchers stop Evolution.
Triumphs were a much better and massively bigger company , and had top engineers. So they made a Jump to Unit Construction, with stronger engines But due to Edward Turner , were unable to get away from the Orangle Peel Piston and Head Shape.
The BSA had a Flat top Piston Crown burnt fuel better.
But the Frames were Crap and Engine Balance Factors were Horrible, and worse than Nortons , but not as bad as an Atlas.
...
But the Man or Women who said , the Norton's , Rods came threw the cases, probable didn't maintain it and had it rebuilt by a Mate.! And just did to many 1/4 Mile winning sprints against Z9's.
But maybe just :
But Norton Commando Engines Won year on year in British and World Sidecar Grass Track Championships and did very well in American Flat Track by Privateers..
But this is a Triumph Website for Triumphs and John Bloor built a New Company and was the Right Man at the Right Time. While all the other European Companies building bikes have all been through the Shareholder and Banks / Hedge fund Mill and are all part of big Car MultiCorporates.
So it does not surprise me that there is a poor supported spare parts system. Because the competition is fierce and to Spread the Wings to far, would be just what the Banks would like.
If you want to see how the trusted leaders of the world powers , stab their own people in the Back. Read the ...... P.....papers......or how the rich hide their wealth and don't pay tax.....bring down government's who want them to!
Here in the 'States, we have MANY good stockists. Our brothers Downunder aren't as blessed...
I am, of course, only voicing an observation based on limited anecdotal evidence.
I have almost daily been on literally DOZENS of online groups dealing with vintage bikes, British Bikes, and Nortons in particular. Over theses 20-plus years I have heard NUMEROUS (certainly over a dozen) stories of blown Commando cranks (with photos), and at the same time only a literal handful (ONE hand) of stories about blown Triumphs and BSAs.
Given that Triumph built many times more big twins as both Norton and BSA, and BSA built considerably more than Norton built, that means the numbers of those brands lean heavily toward Triumph to have likely experienced a relatively higher number of failures.
Yet, the fact remains, MANY more Nortons have reportedly experienced crank/rod failures even thought they represent a relatively smaller percentage of the installed base.
I don't know, maybe Triumph and BSA guys don't like to let on that they blew their engines, and Norton guys are kinda proud of it?
I have almost daily been on literally DOZENS of online groups dealing with vintage bikes, British Bikes, and Nortons in particular. Over theses 20-plus years I have heard NUMEROUS (certainly over a dozen) stories of blown Commando cranks (with photos), and at the same time only a literal handful (ONE hand) of stories about blown Triumphs and BSAs.
Given that Triumph built many times more big twins as both Norton and BSA, and BSA built considerably more than Norton built, that means the numbers of those brands lean heavily toward Triumph to have likely experienced a relatively higher number of failures.
Yet, the fact remains, MANY more Nortons have reportedly experienced crank/rod failures even thought they represent a relatively smaller percentage of the installed base.
I don't know, maybe Triumph and BSA guys don't like to let on that they blew their engines, and Norton guys are kinda proud of it?
could be!
Norton Crank Failures, part of , explained above.
When 10:1 fitted to Triumph Pre units , as in race solo's and sidecars , they "Dropped there Lunch" quite Often too.
Triumphs liked to Rev on there shorter strokes than Norton's.
But the thin CSA of combustion held the compression and power back., which the Rev's couldn't make up for in later years, say 1966 onwards.
Norton and BSA had the Norton shaped combustion chamber.
Not perfect, but compression could be pushed harder.
More recent times, no one should "do a Lunch".
There are so many good improved products for the older bikes, including electric starts.
Because Triumph had better resources , there products were better for the purpose, they chose. The Cranks were Forged One Piece, with a Separate Bolt on Flywheel. lighter and could rev much more smoothly,
Unit construction made it a more practical and lighter engine.
But this is a Triumph site, and I did many trouble free miles on a Early Triumph Twin in England
They must not have much to torque about , if they are proud of it. Its a long way to push home , a heavy bike.
Without wishing to get away from a forum on Triumphs I stand by my personal observations of both management and unions especially as I was an apprentice fitter with a very large company that covered 2 square miles and employed over 2,000 back in the 70's. As I only left the UK in 2003 I have an excellent view of life in England.
Bad management was replaced by greedy union bosses who did play a large part in destroying Britain as an engineering powerhouse. I witnessed first hand wildcat strikes over the most ridiculous reasons. Running out of chocolate biscuits in one of the three works canteen was one such incident. The company was Shell Petrochemicals, they brought in an outside company to assess efficiency. It transpired they were lucky to get 3 actual working hours per day from a worker. We clocked in at 8.00am. You then went to the toilet and had a fag. Then you got changed into your overalls before wandering over to your particular work site. You then left 15 minutes before the morning tea break to visit the toilet and another fag and so it went on. Thefts from site was epidemic but management were too scared to point the finger and risk a strike. I still remember what was called the winter of discontent when it seemed everyone went on strike. Electricity workers causing blackouts, rubbish collectors with the streets piled high, steel workers, miners, newspaper printing unions, the list went on. British Leyland was a Labour party brainchild that was the ultimate demise of Triumph and almost every car company. Yes management played their part but mostly their hands were tied through fear of union repercussions. Modernisation to save money was blocked at every turn. I have read the history of Triumph and the worker buyout and when the entire workforce went on strike for two years! Triumph could never recover from that.
You know your Nortons but I can't agree with your political views that unions were blameless. The great British worker was a myth and I am sorry to say for a few years I was one of them until I had enough and got out. My apologies to all those that visit here for a Triumph Forum. It is relevant Triumph history, but only a little bit. Sorry.
Bad management was replaced by greedy union bosses who did play a large part in destroying Britain as an engineering powerhouse. I witnessed first hand wildcat strikes over the most ridiculous reasons. Running out of chocolate biscuits in one of the three works canteen was one such incident. The company was Shell Petrochemicals, they brought in an outside company to assess efficiency. It transpired they were lucky to get 3 actual working hours per day from a worker. We clocked in at 8.00am. You then went to the toilet and had a fag. Then you got changed into your overalls before wandering over to your particular work site. You then left 15 minutes before the morning tea break to visit the toilet and another fag and so it went on. Thefts from site was epidemic but management were too scared to point the finger and risk a strike. I still remember what was called the winter of discontent when it seemed everyone went on strike. Electricity workers causing blackouts, rubbish collectors with the streets piled high, steel workers, miners, newspaper printing unions, the list went on. British Leyland was a Labour party brainchild that was the ultimate demise of Triumph and almost every car company. Yes management played their part but mostly their hands were tied through fear of union repercussions. Modernisation to save money was blocked at every turn. I have read the history of Triumph and the worker buyout and when the entire workforce went on strike for two years! Triumph could never recover from that.
You know your Nortons but I can't agree with your political views that unions were blameless. The great British worker was a myth and I am sorry to say for a few years I was one of them until I had enough and got out. My apologies to all those that visit here for a Triumph Forum. It is relevant Triumph history, but only a little bit. Sorry.
Yes I am always jealous of the US for just about everything. Availability, lower prices. You guys would be shocked if you knew what we had to pay for the same stuff you have. I believe the US was by far the largest customer of Triumph bikes. I'm also sure 1967, the year my bike was sold in the US was best year ever for Triumph in America. Little wonder parts are so available. Back in the 60's and 70's Australia was not a rich country and imported bikes were a costly luxury to many people. Not so many homegrown Triumphs here.
This is a great discussion. Good information and different points of view.
Here's a picture with the Race Stands I talk about.
The Timber leaning is the Ramp.
The tables are an Aluminum Frame, 4 Push in Legs and a Infit Plywood.
Attachments
Nice work! What do you mean "push in" legs? Those aren't folding legs?
I am trying to find the best price on a genuine hydraulic/pneumatic lift table. With my back I can't risk pushing my bike up a ramp, especially my FJR 1300 which is pretty heavy. My bad back is the reason I need to get my bikes off the floor. Agony takes all the fun out of fiddling. Annoyingly all the best priced tables are way down South with high shipping costs. Like the US Australia is a pretty big country. I shall of course keep trying. Chris, I presume those good looking race bikes are yours, what are they?
Hi Sikatri,
As promised here are piccies of my stripped down outer gearbox casing. This bit is easy to remove and nothing scary when it comes to re assembly. You should be able to see the two springs and the one that is obviously broken. This triangular steel plate has the shaft above which passes through the casing and connected to the gear lever. When changing gear this plate moves up and down but always always returns to centre by the two springs. When you have it stripped to this point it becomes obvious how the gear lever operates the gears and why it needs both springs. Leaving the gear and kickstart lever connected simply makes it easier to pull the casing off. Don't worry, no nasty little springs suddenly fly off and disappear across the garage floor as you remove the casing. I reckon the hardest part of the whole job will cleaning off the old broken gasket taking great care not to scratch the mating surfaces. Preventing Triumphs from leaking oil is a book in itself. Mine is currently oil tight and I would love to keep it that way. Hope this helps.
Attachments
The two springs in the top, is that one of the broken ones?
Correct, the one on the left is fine, the one on the right is in two pieces, snapped about 2/3 thirds along its length. These springs are also curved in shape even when not under any compression.
That really helped, Twin Pots.
Its all clean and free of wear marks.
It certainly well looked after.
Enjoy , when spring fixed.
Chris
Thanks Chris, I have no previous experience opening a Triumph gearbox so its good to hear it looks in good condition. Probably means someone cheap skated in the past and made the mistake of not changing the springs during a restoration. The original cross head casing screws have been replaced with Allen bolts (a sensible change) which would suggest the gearbox has been looked at in the past. All original parts though as I note the new square horseshoe shaped plate see in the photo is original. Even the so called genuine UK Triumph replacements are not the same in appearance. Fedex should be delivering new parts today.
