Electric Starter

[honker]

After rebuilding my T140 l found to much compression to kick it over so l brought electric starter from triumph Bonneville. First of all must say the engineering is great BUT. Due to Cancer l didn't ride the bike on the road it was only started on the ramp while tuning carbs etc. On starting it one day there was a strange noise, on investigation the bendix had come away from the starter motor. I phoned Paul at triumph Bonneville to be told without either Paul or Arc seeing it that l must have drilled the hole wrong. Now bearing in mind they supply the jig and the hole cutter it's impossible to drill it wrong. I was asked to take the bike to Shropshire for Paul to look at it, he replaced the repaired starter and asked for £240 labour. When l asked why had the starter failed he became very angry and told me to get out and never wanted to see me again.
I phoned and emailed Arc but never had a reply.
I would have thought that they would have wanted to know why there was a failure.
I had been recommending people to buy this started because it is really well engineered but don't expect any after sales.

 

[solomon]

After rebuilding my T140 l found to much compression to kick it over so l brought electric starter from triumph Bonneville. First of all must say the engineering is great BUT. Due to Cancer l didn't ride the bike on the road it was only started on the ramp while tuning carbs etc. On starting it one day there was a strange noise, on investigation the bendix had come away from the starter motor. I phoned Paul at triumph Bonneville to be told without either Paul or Arc seeing it that l must have drilled the hole wrong. Now bearing in mind they supply the jig and the hole cutter it's impossible to drill it wrong. I was asked to take the bike to Shropshire for Paul to look at it, he replaced the repaired starter and asked for £240 labour. When l asked why had the starter failed he became very angry and told me to get out and never wanted to see me again.
I phoned and emailed Arc but never had a reply.
I would have thought that they would have wanted to know why there was a failure.
I had been recommending people to buy this started because it is really well engineered but don't expect any after sales.

How about some pics?
Is it the Meriden starter running of timing pinions, or is it the one that goes on the primary side, necessitates a dry primary?

How can a starter fail because you drilled the hole wrong, then the repaired starter work in the same place?

If it's faulty, I'd make a claim through small claims if the shop is being that evasive and rude.

 

[honker]

How about some pics?
Is it the Meriden starter running of timing pinions, or is it the one that goes on the primary side, necessitates a dry primary?

How can a starter fail because you drilled the hole wrong, then the repaired starter work in the same place?

If it's faulty, I'd make a claim through small claims if the shop is being that evasive and rude.

It's a complete kit costs £2500. New clutch basket and pulleys now belt drive. Because of where you drill for the bendix you do away with the breather from the primary case where they put the breather it does not work. So l split the crankcase and put in a breather that works . Photo of new breather, when l got home l found that Paul had damaged the new primary chain case, see photo

 

[solomon]

Are they saying the breather caused the starter motor to fail? That's a well established location. Is that the 'wrongly' drilled hole?

Don't think you could prove Shropshire damaged the case. And they will hardly admit it, given their stance.

I suppose you could email the supplier again, say you know many motorcyclists, and have recommended their conversion. And it would be with reluctance you'd have to inform them, and your forum acquaintances, of the product failure and lack of engagement and remedy.

 

[honker]

No breather didn't cause the problem it was a malfunction of the bendix. Phoned and left messages with Arc also emailed them nothing back.

 

[solomon]

That's a shame. At least you've let others know.
I've bought a Meriden starter, but to fit I need to take engine apart and get someone to increase a spindle bore.

 

[honker]

That's a shame. At least you've let others know.
I've bought a Meriden starter, but to fit I need to take engine apart and get someone to increase a spindle bore.

What is a Meriden starter, does it work off of the timing cog's

 

[solomon]

What is a Meriden starter, does it work off of the timing cog's

Yes, as fitted to the T140ES. Prone to damaging bike though, not as well working as yours.

The centre timing cog spindle spins on the ES. So I've got to get that bore enlarged it's presently wedged into, and then push a brass sleeve in.

 

[honker]

Thanks for showing me

 

[tobyb]

The early ARC kits where known for failures in the primary case casting. The E.S type starters are fine as long as you get the upgrade kit. This consists of a nitrided pinion gear and improved stronger spindle. Also it is wise to fit a good electronic ign system like Tri-Spark to the bike. As to retro-fitting L.P Williams sells the pinion gear and a modified spindle to allow fitting to non-ES machines.

 

[honker]

The early ARC kits where known for failures in the primary case casting. The E.S type starters are fine as long as you get the upgrade kit. This consists of a nitrided pinion gear and improved stronger spindle. Also it is wise to fit a good electronic ign system like Tri-Spark to the bike. As to retro-fitting L.P Williams sells the pinion gear and a modified spindle to allow fitting to non-ES machines.

Wish I had known about this kit before. Who sells this kit.
Thanks tobyb

 

[tobyb]

LP Williams and KBM Motorcycles had the kits and up-grade parts,

 

[solomon]

Wish I had known about this kit before. Who sells this kit.
Thanks tobyb

As said, I bought a (used) timing side Meriden starter set. You are much better off with your primary side. If the Meriden strengthened spindles and cogs are used, just causes a fracture in crankcase if engine kicks back. Something has to give. There's nothing in the starter mechanism that does give.
I'm tight, only reason I got a timing side.

 

[tobyb]

As said, I bought a (used) timing side Meriden starter set. You are much better off with your primary side. If the Meriden strengthened spindles and cogs are used, just causes a fracture in crankcase if engine kicks back. Something has to give. There's nothing in the starter mechanism that does give.
I'm tight, only reason I got a timing side.

The only reason a properly tuned bike will kick back is if it is flooded or the is insufficient power from the batt. If it does kickback it will wreck the sprag clutch. The crankcase 'sorry' is based on bikes that have continually kicked back over a period of time. One reason for that was owners would need a new batt and go into the shop and ask for one for a T140. They would be given a 7 amp one rather than the 14 amp needed. As a side point the correct way to start an ES with MK 2 Amals from cold is: Full choke, pull in the clutch and hit the button. If you hold the clutch lever it for a few seconds the clutch will be free. Sticking clutch's where not as big an issue with the 79 on machines as they had a 7 plate clutch. From hot: if the bike has been shitting for 1/2 an hour or more, give it 1/2 choke then close it once the bike has started up.

 

[solomon]

The only reason a properly tuned bike will kick back is if it is flooded or the is insufficient power from the batt.

Who hasn't flooded their engine? A sufficient battery may drain say on a ride with lights on, on left a few weeks. Whilst these things can be avoided, the point is not everyone is perfect, some of us are very imperfect, and a slipup can mean a kickback. With the primary side starter, i think the risk of damge is eliminated, so that is the best choice. Also, fitting a Meriden starter means getting somewhere to bore out a spindle hole.

Meriden beefed up the boss around the hole in later Electric Start models, so my crankcase will not be as strong as those later ES models.

Anyway, the point is, if the bike kicks back, damage can result, it might destroy the sprag, and could crack the case around at that spindle boss. It is just something people should be aware of when considering fitting a starter.

 

[speedrattle]

i havent yet got to where i need an electric start, but i will likely first install lower compression ratio pistons and see whether that works for a few years.

before i bought a hand held starter for my race bike i could easily kick start 11.75 to 1 with fixed advance. i had to use the starter for gearshift lever clearance, but otherwise it wasnt necessary.

my commuter is 9.5 to 1 and starts easily

 

[tobyb]

Who hasn't flooded their engine? A sufficient battery may drain say on a ride with lights on, on left a few weeks. Whilst these things can be avoided, the point is not everyone is perfect, some of us are very imperfect, and a slipup can mean a kickback. With the primary side starter, i think the risk of damge is eliminated, so that is the best choice. Also, fitting a Meriden starter means getting somewhere to bore out a spindle hole.

View attachment 55841

View attachment 55840

Meriden beefed up the boss around the hole in later Electric Start models, so my crankcase will not be as strong as those later ES models.

Anyway, the point is, if the bike kicks back, damage can result, it might destroy the sprag, and could crack the case around at that spindle boss. It is just something people should be aware of when considering fitting a starter.

You don't have to bore out the spindle bush, you can buy a shaft that has been machined to suit.

 

[solomon]

You don't have to bore out the spindle bush, you can buy a shaft that has been machined to suit.

There would be no brass bush then. Wouldn't that wear the crankcase?

Do you have a link to the spindle? Haven't fitted mine yet because of need to split engine. And that means, inevitably doing a full refurb, including paint.

 

[solomon]

my commuter is 9.5 to 1 and starts easily

mine starts easily enough. Usually.

It's stalling at lights where a starter would be useful.

Stalled in the outside lane of three lanes last week. Yes, maybe my carbs are worn, but thses things happen. I then half-panicked, hadn't found neutral when i kicked it. Need to stand next to bike too, to kick it. So I looked a right clown.

And I'm getting on bit. Had a torn knee a few months ago. Can only think of one thing that might have caused it!!

 

[sikatri]

Who hasn't flooded their engine? A sufficient battery may drain say on a ride with lights on, on left a few weeks. Whilst these things can be avoided, the point is not everyone is perfect, some of us are very imperfect, and a slipup can mean a kickback. With the primary side starter, i think the risk of damge is eliminated, so that is the best choice. Also, fitting a Meriden starter means getting somewhere to bore out a spindle hole.

View attachment 55841

View attachment 55840

Meriden beefed up the boss around the hole in later Electric Start models, so my crankcase will not be as strong as those later ES models.

Anyway, the point is, if the bike kicks back, damage can result, it might destroy the sprag, and could crack the case around at that spindle boss. It is just something people should be aware of when considering fitting a starter.

Perhaps someone could make a beefed up reinforcement part for the boss like on the newer Bonneville Twin idler boss reinforcement.