Starting Dilemma Tied To The Starter Solenoid

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MoreCowbell said:
BUT IS DISAPPEARS AFTER AN HOUR !!! That's what we've been sayin' !!
Click to expand...
Yes, it sure does, because the forum software assumes, after an hour: 1) you have corrected/amended your original post, as you desire, or 2) someone has responded to your post, which disables your ability to make changes to your original post.

It is not really a flaw, but a matter of [in someone's head] "good housekeeping".
 
For Grayfell (#21) – what you are saying may be the case but other forums I participate in allow edits indefinitely, which is really the smarter way to do it. A week after a post, one might discover something that could inspire an update or correction. This keeps the thread from getting cluttered with a lot of “Hey, back on my post #xx, what I really should have written was …”


For AtomSplitter (#19) – I appreciate all your thoughts. As often happens as one goes up the learning curve, everything you wrote I came to know well within a few hours of my post. This is what happens and I have been too busy to update this thread. In my defense about my ignorance about the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, I will add this:

From a post on another forum - “[The component] temporarily diverts headlamp power to the operating coil of the starter solenoid when the start button is pressed, which incidentally turns the headlight off to help the battery cope with the huge starter motor current demand.”

NOWHERE in the Triumph service manual or Owners Manual is this critical statement made – ANYWHERE !!

This underscores my longstanding complaint about the deficiency in the Triumph manual(s) but I digress.




• I should mention that with everything on the bike (see pics on my post #9), with the key on – a jump between #1 and #3 started the bike right up.

• Recall that I verified via bench test that the Starter solenoid works fine. To your point about the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, I removed it and applied the following test (except #5):

Bench Test Procedure for Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay:

  1. Check resistance between pins 85 & 86. 50Ω - 200Ω is normal.
  2. Confirm continuity between pins 30 & 87A; a value of ~1.2Ω is typical. An audible buzz from the meter should be heard.
  3. Apply 12V power to pins 85 & 86. A healthy relay will produce an audible click as the connection is made.
  4. With the relay activated, check the resistance between pins 30 & 87. The resistance should be very small, typically ~10Ω. An audible buzz from the meter should be heard.
  5. With 12V power also supplied to pin 30, take a grounded 12V test light and apply this load to pin 87 and confirm current flow.
Everything checked out, with 1.2Ω on step 2 and 11Ω on step 4. This relay seems to be fine.

I guess the next step it to reinstall the solenoid and relay and do some further tracing. I’m beginning to run out of ideas.
 
The headlight cut-out relay is working if the headlight goes out when you hit the starter button. That relay is a double pole, single throw relay, i.e. either the headlight side is closed or the starter relay side is closed, one circuit is always energized when the ignition switch is on. So with the ignition switch ON the headlight illuminates because that's the de-energized state of the relay. When the starter button is pushed it energizes the relay and simply switches position of the contact bar (because the coil in the relay is energized it pivots the bar closing the contact to the starter relay and opens the contact to headlight). When the starter button is pushed and the starter relay is energized by the headlight cut-out relay the voltage to ground on the load side of the relay should be 12+ volts. If the relay has 12+ volts on the load side then current to the starter motor at the starter terminal should be 12+ volts as well. The starter motor case is grounded so the motor should spin with voltage and current available.

Based on your statement when you jumpered voltage from post #1 in picture to terminal post #3 that put the battery + connection (large red cable) to the terminal post on the relay that should be energized from the headlight cut-out relay. The black wire #4 goes to ground so by jumpering that terminal you completed the circuit to ground for the relay indicating your headlight cut-out relay is not energizing the starter solenoid. The relay may be giving you good indication on a multimeter, that doesn't mean it's working internally because it has to physically throw a switch. If the pivot point is loose or broken it'll click all day, but it won't necessarily connect power to the starter relay. For the minor cost, if it were me I'd replace the headlight cut-out relay and see if that gets a normal start sequence.

Based on what I could find, Triumph part T2501705 should be what you need. You'll want to double check that.
 
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Time to update this thread (this refers to pictures on pictures on post #9); some of this may be recap:

When I speak of clicks on pressing the starter button, I verified that BOTH the Starter solenoid and Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay are clicking.

I removed these components and performed a complete bench test on both the Starter solenoid and the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay. They checked out fine, as designed.

To assuage any comments on posts to simply replace the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, I did so and the persistent clicks continued without turning over the starter motor.

Another test is to remove the terminal at #3 and check voltage delivered (new battery showing 12.98V).

• With key on only, I get 0.0V

• As the starter button is pressed, I get 12.2V

But I got wondering: “Why remove #3 to make that reading? Why not get a reading with #3 connected to fully simulate what’s happening when the start button is presses?” I expected the same result as before but instead only got 0.32V. Does this tell us anything?

So, to recap:
  1. I jumpered across the 2 solenoid posts (#1 & #2) and it started right up !!
  2. To effectively bypass the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, I bridged across points #1 and #3 with the key on; it started right up !!
  3. I attached jumper cables from my pickup and the motorcycle started right up !!
Having thoroughly tested the Starter solenoid and Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay on he bench, Points A, B, & C above best isolate and define the problem, and it seems to have more to do with brute force current (especially B & C) than anything else. Something somehow seems to be preventing adequate current from delivery to the starter. I’m starting to think more about the inscrutable ECM.

Finally, according to the ignition schematic (Service Manual, p.17.111), I might also mention that #4 (which should be a ground for that side of the relay; that’s even what AtomSplitter thought) goes to the kickstand switch and then to the ECM. This may suggest that the ECM may something to do with the proper functioning of Starter solenoid.

P.S.
To AtomSplitter - When you say:

“The relay may be giving you good indication on a multimeter, that doesn't mean it's working internally because it has to physically throw a switch. If the pivot point is loose or broken it'll click all day, but it won't necessarily connect power to the starter relay. For the minor cost, if it were me I'd replace the headlight cut-out relay and see if that gets a normal start sequence.”

I believe this is obviated by ‘B’ as well as my total replacement of the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay.
 
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If terminal #3 is the cable to battery there should be 12+ volts key on, key off, key in the Hudson river. The + side terminal to battery should alway be hot. If you test for voltage to ground on # 4, ignition key off what do you get? Also the ground wire can be common to a lot of components. I'm thinking the starter relay is somehow not letting full current to starter motor flow.

1737672172385.png
 
AtomSplitter:
Whey you say:

"If terminal #3 is the cable to battery there should be 12+ volts key on, key off, key in the Hudson river. The + side terminal to battery should alway be hot."

This is not news; it has been repeated and well recognized in this thread.

When you say:
I'm thinking the starter relay is somehow not letting full current to starter motor flow.

To be clear, I think you’re referring to the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay (vs. the Starter solenoid, which is also a relay). Note that I said that I tested the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, and even replaced it with a new one with no corrective results.



To recap the triad of successful tests:

A. I jumpered across the 2 solenoid posts (#1 & #2) and it started right up !!
B. To effectively bypass the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, I bridged across points #1 and #3 with the key on; it started right up !!
C. I attached jumper cables from my pickup and the motorcycle started right up !!

In my last post, I wrote:

Having thoroughly tested the Starter solenoid and Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay on he bench, Points A, B, & C above best isolate and define the problem, and it seems to have more to do with brute force current (especially B & C) than anything else. Something somehow seems to be preventing adequate current from delivery to the starter. I’m starting to think more about the inscrutable ECM.

I put current in bold for a reason.

Note also that I wrote:

Finally, according to the ignition schematic (Service Manual, p.17.111), I might also mention that #4 (which should be a ground for that side of the relay) goes to the kickstand switch and then to the ECM. This may suggest that the ECM may something to do with the proper functioning of Starter solenoid.

I’ve been trying to get to causality. When I consider the 3 tasks that allow me to reliably activate the starter, it’s interesting that A&B (1&2) momentarily bypass the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, and possibly significantly, the ECM. I remain suspicious that the ECM – at least after 7 years of normal starting behavior – has decided to inspect not only for battery voltage but perhaps battery amperage output. That is what all the symptoms reported in this thread point to. I also note that, as near as I can tell (Triumph never bothered to mention this spec in its Service Manual of Owner’s Handbook), the OEM battery was rated at 180cca. The new AGM battery was so rated, but hasn’t been able to deliver reliable starts (more later).

Based on forums I’ve visited, the starting dilemma I’m reporting here has been experienced by Bonneville riders through out North America and Europe, and I suspect is well known to at least one guy at the Triumph factory in Hinkley. If that location was in America, I’d approach directly to find the real cause of this problem.

While not elucidating causality, but believing that the problem has most to do with current, my ultimate task yesterday was as follows:

I obtained a Li+ ion battery rated at 500cca to replace and AGM better rated at 180cca:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CNT56YJL?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1

When installed, the Bonneville started right up and I followed this with successive starts at approximately hourly intervals; I let it run for 2-3 minutes at a time. Note that during this time, the a Li+ ion battery was NOT on a charger. It began at 14.45V and after the 10th start last night, had dropped to 13.30V. I put the trickle charger on it overnight and it checked out at 14.50V this morning. And it started right up !!

This problem remains a dilemma in terms of real causality but I’ve followed symptoms to guide me in getting to a scenario that actually facilitated successful starts.
 
P.S.
AtomSplitter - To be clear, when you say "... terminal #3 is the cable to battery ...", I think you mean #1 on my photo - the controlled side of the Starter solenoid.
 
I’ve been following this thread with some interest as one of my lads has a 900 Thruxton. Whilst the lithium battery would appear to have solved the problem I have thought from the start that the cause of the problem is simply a poor electrical connection somewhere. Providing the AGM battery was in a serviceable state I fail to see why it should not be capable of turning the engine over. It may be that in installing the Lithium battery the dodgy electrical connection was improved and/or the Lithium battery’s ability to deliver more amps was sufficient to overcome the poor electrical connection.
 
Bloodknot said:
I’ve been following this thread with some interest as one of my lads has a 900 Thruxton. Whilst the lithium battery would appear to have solved the problem I have thought from the start that the cause of the problem is simply a poor electrical connection somewhere. Providing the AGM battery was in a serviceable state I fail to see why it should not be capable of turning the engine over. It may be that in installing the Lithium battery the dodgy electrical connection was improved and/or the Lithium battery’s ability to deliver more amps was sufficient to overcome the poor electrical connection.
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I'm thinking you may be on to something. When there is an abundance of amperage available it seems possible it could overcome a poor connection. Makes me curious if the dreaded bad ground connection was in play.
 
One more quick note, the rectifier in a 2016 is probably not rated to charge a lithium battery, they are rated to charge an AGM. My son-in-law bought a 2010 Speed Triple Anniversary Edition the PO had installed a LiOH battery, and within 3 weeks he had to replace the rectifier. Maybe pure coincidence (rectifier might have been bad before the battery was replaced), but something to monitor.
 
atomsplitter said:
One more quick note, the rectifier in a 2016 is probably not rated to charge a lithium battery, they are rated to charge an AGM. My son-in-law bought a 2010 Speed Triple Anniversary Edition the PO had installed a LiOH battery, and within 3 weeks he had to replace the rectifier. Maybe pure coincidence (rectifier might have been bad before the battery was replaced), but something to monitor.
Click to expand...
That was the other point I was going to make. When installing a Lithium battery as a replacement for a traditional lead acid battery you must ensure that the components in the electrical infrastructure of the machine are capable of dealing with the new battery’s enhanced power capability.
 
MoreCowbell said:
Firstly, based on many posts I have read regarding the Bonneville, the problem I am having is a perennial one that Triumph has never solved. I'm hoping to get the attention of Carl S and/or MacBandit:
  1. After about 7 years, I am having starting issues with my 2016 Bonneville T100 (only 3300 miles!). Even with a “good” battery (am now on my second new battery), the starting success is intermittent – mostly a fail: all I get are clicks at the starter solenoid.
  2. Right out of the box, the 2nd new battery I’ve obtained (180 cca) tested at 12.97V. When installed, it started my motorcycle right away. After running for a minute, I shut it down and after a few seconds, started again. I may have done the once more and then it began failing again: I only got clicks at the starter solenoid. I tried to start the motorcycle again several times thereafter and same result: click at the solenoid !! The battery voltage held to at least 12.6V, which was good. For the hell of it, I had it tested at AutoZone and – unsurprisingly - it came back totally healthy. Then I attached jumper cables from my pickup and the motorcycle started right up !! When the cables were disconnected, it again failed: clicks at the solenoid
Finally, I jumpered across the 2 solenoid posts and it started right up !!!

I’m now doubting that the issue has anything to do with the battery per se.

So my question is:

Is it usual that a 2016 Bonneville with only 3300 miles on it would have a starter solenoid go south ??? My diagnostics are pointing to a failed solenoid.
Click to expand...
take a feed of your battery and touch the right connection on your starter solenoid if it starts every time then as stated in another post go for the relay .a relay is about £10/ £15 from a good auto electrical supplier probably need a bank loan of triumph
 
morecowbell on your drawing take a jumper wire from 1 to 3 and a ground wire to 4 this will energise starter relay and the starter should run
 
Bloodknot & AtomSplitter: Your theory about a bad connection is certainly plausible. I’m still suspicions of a perhaps unintended influence by the ECM, which is (from I’ve read) only apposed to be checking battery surface charge (not output current) before a start is initiated.

Another wrinkle I didn’t need … (smile): AtomSplitter’s comment about the rectifier/regulator is a good one, and something that crossed my mind, too. A friend also brought this up. Interestingly, when I sought a trickle charger for the Li+ battery, I read that a “regular” one for an AGM batter would not be compatible. I therefore bought a “special” charger for this battery.

I guess until I can somehow complete eliminate the ECM influence and/or faulty connection, I’ll continue to ride her – a bit fat, dumb and happy (as it were).

AtomSplitter (#34): Your point about the regulator/rectifier being possibly incompatible with the Li+ battery is noted. As I will explain further below, I have reverted back to the AGM battery and returned the Li+ battery and charger.

Rogerp (#37): With the previous new AGM battery installed, I removed the terminal from #4 and ran a test lead from the male #4 spade on the solenoid to battery ground. With the battery at 12.8V and key on (dropped to~12.6V), I pressed the starter. The solenoid and Headlight Cut-out relay clicked but that’s it. Jumping from #1 to #3 is ‘B’ of the triad, which of course turns the starter.

This thread has gone on for 3 weeks and almost taken on a life of its own. With all of the gyrations and speculations by contributors (all of which is appreciated), nothing leads to the causality I have sought. I have pursued this dilemma on several other Triumph threads, including TriumphRat and TheTriumphForum. A lengthy thread on TriumphRat (last 4 pages) recognizes a flaw in the ECM by Keihin and describes a “bypass” procedure involving installation of a 1A diode! How complicated could this problem be; how complicated must a fix be? Quickly back to the ECM, I have said several times in this thread that I am suspicious of the ECM as being the root cause of the clicks dilemma with all but a 500A battery. For its later model bikes, Triumph chose to partner with China for its ECM. China is not known for the highest quality products worldwide. But I digress …


I have chosen this as the best, simplest and cheapest solution - which is based on ‘A’ of the triad:

I have ordered a 12V/50A push button starter switch that is moisture-sealed. I will tap into terminals #1 and #2 on the Starter solenoid and send leads (10ga stranded wire) to the switch, which I can cleverly mount on the left-hand cover in its upper right-hand area. Since I have already installed a handlebar toggle switch for the bright center headlight lamp, the Headlight Cut-out relay will not be needed, and in fact terminals #3 & #4 can be removed.

Next week, I plan to post a couple pictures of the finished result.

P.S.

It’s absolutely shameful that one spends $10,000 for a Bonneville T100 and have this absurd problem emerge after only 8 years, and unprofessional that Triumph hasn’t tuned into this and leaned into the problem.
 
Interesting that you would say that about recalls Bloodnot b/c as I have come to understand this dilemma (as well as anyone could understand it), it has occurred to me that a Triumph recall may well have been in order !!

The first link you posted yielded nothing for my VIN.
I carefully scanned the other link you posted (history) and found nothing for my T100, the closet thing being this for 2024:

https://ec.europa.eu/safety-gate-alerts/screen/webReport/alertDetail/10092192?lang=en
 

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