Triumph TR6RV Tiger Restoration; 26+ Years Sitting
- Thread starter BAinLA
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For the headlight, so between bulb cover and the battery +ve terminal? If so,
One source.
Could be whatever does the emi protection has failed, or whatever's affecting your meters is something else?Single phase alternator, AC Voltmeter/setting will indicate something but it is a 'ripple' in the DC, should be only around 0.1V. AC from the alternator really getting through to the DC means either all four separate diodes in the rectifier have failed closed or the DPO was really stupid. And it would have screwed the battery.
Alternator on your bike is inside the primary chaincase. Original electrics:-
. Stator has a black 'cable' emerging from the inside face of the chaincase, routed over the top of the gearbox to the frame spine behind the engine. Two separate wires emerge from the end of the black insulation, one White/Green, the other Green/Yellow (no problem if the wire colours are not the same, but post if there are more than two wires). The two wires terminate in bullets, connected to the same colours wires in the main harness.
. The two wires emerge from the harness under the seat where the rectifier is mounted. Original rectifier looks like the drawing on parts book page 88. The alternator wires connect to the top and bottom spade terminals; the Brown/Blue wire between battery -ve and ignition switch connects to the centre spade terminal.
. The rectifier is connected across the battery. The Brown/Blue wire connects it to battery -ve; however, its connection to battery +ve might be poor - its mounting stud is +ve, if there is not a Red wire connected to a male spade terminal at one end of the stud,
the stud's connection to battery +ve is only its attachment to what the parts book calls the "Mounting platform", the connection of the "platform" to the frame and a Red wire between somewhere else on the frame and battery +ve. 
. If the rectifier does not have a Red wire attached, and its connection to battery +ve is as I have described, I strongly advise improving it - similar to my previous advice for a better return from the Zener, length of Red wire between the rectifier and an existing Red wires snap connector, ring terminal on one end under the rectifier's securing nut to the "platform", bullet terminal on the other end into the snap connector. As your bike still uses points, adding this wire will also improve the condensers return path to battery +ve, which might reduce the sparking you are seeing across the points.
The above assumes the original rectifier and Zener diode have not been replaced with a combined regulator/rectifier; if they have, the alternator wires will likely connect to Yellow wires into the reg./rec.
Or the rectifier alone might have been replaced with:-
... (CBS is not the only source, I just linked his image).
Nevertheless, alternator and rectifier connected as above, ime it would be amazing for all four rectifier diodes all to have failed closed and be conducting alternator AC into your bike's DC wiring. More usual is one or more diode connections on an original multi-plate rectifier broken by a DPO, the rectifier then rectifies either only half the alternator output, or none at all.
(Non-fluctuating ...) meter connected across the battery, half-wave rectification would show as a very slow Volts increase with increased engine rpm, no rectification would show as no Volts increase with increased engine rpm. Zener diode:-
As standard on all DC-electrics Triumphs between '66 and about '80, the Zener is connected across the battery - the Brown/Blue wire connects its male spade terminal to battery -ve; the Zener's mounting on the airbox, the airbox's connection to the battery carrier and one of the Red wires crimped in the ring terminal on a battery carrier bolt are the Zener's connection to battery +ve (as I posted earlier, the Red wiring can be much simpler
).Most diodes conduct only in one direction (that's why it takes four to rectify AC to DC
). Accidentally connect an original rectifier's centre plate to battery +ve and its mounting stud to battery -ve, instant short, blows the fuse. Similarly, accidentally connect the Zener's stud to battery -ve and its spade terminal battery +ve, another instant short.However, a special property of specifically Zener diodes is: increase the Volts between spade and stud above about 13V and it starts to conduct, its resistance turning into heat current (Amps) generated by the alternator but not required by ignition, lights, charging the battery, etc. So it is not an 'on/off switch' as engine rpm/ alternator generation varies, a Zener conducts between -ve and +ve gradually over a range, Lucas supplied ~13V to ~15V.
AC entering the DC system, while a Zener could regulate one half of the AC wave, it would simply conduct the other half; my feeling is, at tickover, the 'conducting' half of the AC wave would be long enough to blow the fuse?
The headlight shell fitted to 650/750 '73-'78 is one of a number with the same basic shape fitted for decades, just differing in the number of holes for switches, warning lamps, etc.
The 'flatback' shell was fitted to some BSA's in the late 1960's but the first Triumphs fitted with it were the '69 triples, but they also had an unique mounting for speedometer, rev. counter, Voltmeter and warning lights. Intention to delete the Voltmeter '71-on, someone obviously thought the flatback shell could be modified for three warning lights, but I suspect you know how "practical" is fitting the headlamp with them?
If that did not scupper the flatback shell on its own, I suspect the decision to change the headlight type fitted to European bikes probably did; either for or sometime during '72, certainly bikes going to European countries were fitted with the headlight that US and UK bikes eventually got from part way through '77. The bulb type in this headlight has an H4 (three spade terminals) connection, fitting that headlamp type in the flatback shell is not impossible - one of my bikes has it - but it is ... challenging ... and my bike does not have the warning lamps.
The shell and mounting parts fitted to 650/750 '73-'78 had been fitted to the T100 from '71; faced with changing the headlamp on European bikes, I suspect someone looked at the T100 bits and the 650 bits ... and decided which was more "practical" ...
This shell shape only extends 4" rearwards from the centres of the mounting holes, the T100/'73-'78 650/750 mounting brackets have short horizontal slots, slot centre is 5" from fork leg centre so the shell does not even extend between the fork legs.
BAinLA
Well-Known Member
Thanks Rudie, I've been out working all day but wanted to thank you for this treasure trove of useful information. I will again print it up and use it as a reference when I tackle my electrical gremlins. -Brian
For the headlight, so between bulb cover and the battery +ve terminal? If so,
One source.
Single phase alternator, AC Voltmeter/setting will indicate something but it is a 'ripple' in the DC, should be only around 0.1V. AC from the alternator really getting through to the DC means either all four separate diodes in the rectifier have failed closed or the DPO was really stupid. And it would have screwed the battery.
Alternator on your bike is inside the primary chaincase. Original electrics:-
. Stator has a black 'cable' emerging from the inside face of the chaincase, routed over the top of the gearbox to the frame spine behind the engine. Two separate wires emerge from the end of the black insulation, one White/Green, the other Green/Yellow (no problem if the wire colours are not the same, but post if there are more than two wires). The two wires terminate in bullets, connected to the same colours wires in the main harness.
. The two wires emerge from the harness under the seat where the rectifier is mounted. Original rectifier looks like the drawing on parts book page 88. The alternator wires connect to the top and bottom spade terminals; the Brown/Blue wire between battery -ve and ignition switch connects to the centre spade terminal.
. The rectifier is connected across the battery. The Brown/Blue wire connects it to battery -ve; however, its connection to battery +ve might be poor - its mounting stud is +ve, if there is not a Red wire connected to a male spade terminal at one end of the stud,
. If the rectifier does not have a Red wire attached, and its connection to battery +ve is as I have described, I strongly advise improving it - similar to my previous advice for a better return from the Zener, length of Red wire between the rectifier and an existing Red wires snap connector, ring terminal on one end under the rectifier's securing nut to the "platform", bullet terminal on the other end into the snap connector. As your bike still uses points, adding this wire will also improve the condensers return path to battery +ve, which might reduce the sparking you are seeing across the points.
The above assumes the original rectifier and Zener diode have not been replaced with a combined regulator/rectifier; if they have, the alternator wires will likely connect to Yellow wires into the reg./rec.
Or the rectifier alone might have been replaced with:-
... (CBS is not the only source, I just linked his image).
Nevertheless, alternator and rectifier connected as above, ime it would be amazing for all four rectifier diodes all to have failed closed and be conducting alternator AC into your bike's DC wiring. More usual is one or more diode connections on an original multi-plate rectifier broken by a DPO, the rectifier then rectifies either only half the alternator output, or none at all.
Zener diode:-
As standard on all DC-electrics Triumphs between '66 and about '80, the Zener is connected across the battery - the Brown/Blue wire connects its male spade terminal to battery -ve; the Zener's mounting on the airbox, the airbox's connection to the battery carrier and one of the Red wires crimped in the ring terminal on a battery carrier bolt are the Zener's connection to battery +ve (as I posted earlier, the Red wiring can be much simpler
Most diodes conduct only in one direction (that's why it takes four to rectify AC to DC
However, a special property of specifically Zener diodes is: increase the Volts between spade and stud above about 13V and it starts to conduct, its resistance turning into heat current (Amps) generated by the alternator but not required by ignition, lights, charging the battery, etc. So it is not an 'on/off switch' as engine rpm/ alternator generation varies, a Zener conducts between -ve and +ve gradually over a range, Lucas supplied ~13V to ~15V.
AC entering the DC system, while a Zener could regulate one half of the AC wave, it would simply conduct the other half; my feeling is, at tickover, the 'conducting' half of the AC wave would be long enough to blow the fuse?
The headlight shell fitted to 650/750 '73-'78 is one of a number with the same basic shape fitted for decades, just differing in the number of holes for switches, warning lamps, etc.
The 'flatback' shell was fitted to some BSA's in the late 1960's but the first Triumphs fitted with it were the '69 triples, but they also had an unique mounting for speedometer, rev. counter, Voltmeter and warning lights. Intention to delete the Voltmeter '71-on, someone obviously thought the flatback shell could be modified for three warning lights, but I suspect you know how "practical" is fitting the headlamp with them?
If that did not scupper the flatback shell on its own, I suspect the decision to change the headlight type fitted to European bikes probably did; either for or sometime during '72, certainly bikes going to European countries were fitted with the headlight that US and UK bikes eventually got from part way through '77. The bulb type in this headlight has an H4 (three spade terminals) connection, fitting that headlamp type in the flatback shell is not impossible - one of my bikes has it - but it is ... challenging ... and my bike does not have the warning lamps.
The shell and mounting parts fitted to 650/750 '73-'78 had been fitted to the T100 from '71; faced with changing the headlamp on European bikes, I suspect someone looked at the T100 bits and the 650 bits ... and decided which was more "practical" ...
'72TR6RV
Member
Holy cow....lots of good information.
For the headlight, so between bulb cover and the battery +ve terminal? If so,
One source.
Single phase alternator, AC Voltmeter/setting will indicate something but it is a 'ripple' in the DC, should be only around 0.1V. AC from the alternator really getting through to the DC means either all four separate diodes in the rectifier have failed closed or the DPO was really stupid. And it would have screwed the battery.
Alternator on your bike is inside the primary chaincase. Original electrics:-
. Stator has a black 'cable' emerging from the inside face of the chaincase, routed over the top of the gearbox to the frame spine behind the engine. Two separate wires emerge from the end of the black insulation, one White/Green, the other Green/Yellow (no problem if the wire colours are not the same, but post if there are more than two wires). The two wires terminate in bullets, connected to the same colours wires in the main harness.
. The two wires emerge from the harness under the seat where the rectifier is mounted. Original rectifier looks like the drawing on parts book page 88. The alternator wires connect to the top and bottom spade terminals; the Brown/Blue wire between battery -ve and ignition switch connects to the centre spade terminal.
. The rectifier is connected across the battery. The Brown/Blue wire connects it to battery -ve; however, its connection to battery +ve might be poor - its mounting stud is +ve, if there is not a Red wire connected to a male spade terminal at one end of the stud,
. If the rectifier does not have a Red wire attached, and its connection to battery +ve is as I have described, I strongly advise improving it - similar to my previous advice for a better return from the Zener, length of Red wire between the rectifier and an existing Red wires snap connector, ring terminal on one end under the rectifier's securing nut to the "platform", bullet terminal on the other end into the snap connector. As your bike still uses points, adding this wire will also improve the condensers return path to battery +ve, which might reduce the sparking you are seeing across the points.
The above assumes the original rectifier and Zener diode have not been replaced with a combined regulator/rectifier; if they have, the alternator wires will likely connect to Yellow wires into the reg./rec.
Or the rectifier alone might have been replaced with:-
... (CBS is not the only source, I just linked his image).
Nevertheless, alternator and rectifier connected as above, ime it would be amazing for all four rectifier diodes all to have failed closed and be conducting alternator AC into your bike's DC wiring. More usual is one or more diode connections on an original multi-plate rectifier broken by a DPO, the rectifier then rectifies either only half the alternator output, or none at all.
Zener diode:-
As standard on all DC-electrics Triumphs between '66 and about '80, the Zener is connected across the battery - the Brown/Blue wire connects its male spade terminal to battery -ve; the Zener's mounting on the airbox, the airbox's connection to the battery carrier and one of the Red wires crimped in the ring terminal on a battery carrier bolt are the Zener's connection to battery +ve (as I posted earlier, the Red wiring can be much simpler
Most diodes conduct only in one direction (that's why it takes four to rectify AC to DC
However, a special property of specifically Zener diodes is: increase the Volts between spade and stud above about 13V and it starts to conduct, its resistance turning into heat current (Amps) generated by the alternator but not required by ignition, lights, charging the battery, etc. So it is not an 'on/off switch' as engine rpm/ alternator generation varies, a Zener conducts between -ve and +ve gradually over a range, Lucas supplied ~13V to ~15V.
AC entering the DC system, while a Zener could regulate one half of the AC wave, it would simply conduct the other half; my feeling is, at tickover, the 'conducting' half of the AC wave would be long enough to blow the fuse?
The headlight shell fitted to 650/750 '73-'78 is one of a number with the same basic shape fitted for decades, just differing in the number of holes for switches, warning lamps, etc.
The 'flatback' shell was fitted to some BSA's in the late 1960's but the first Triumphs fitted with it were the '69 triples, but they also had an unique mounting for speedometer, rev. counter, Voltmeter and warning lights. Intention to delete the Voltmeter '71-on, someone obviously thought the flatback shell could be modified for three warning lights, but I suspect you know how "practical" is fitting the headlamp with them?
If that did not scupper the flatback shell on its own, I suspect the decision to change the headlight type fitted to European bikes probably did; either for or sometime during '72, certainly bikes going to European countries were fitted with the headlight that US and UK bikes eventually got from part way through '77. The bulb type in this headlight has an H4 (three spade terminals) connection, fitting that headlamp type in the flatback shell is not impossible - one of my bikes has it - but it is ... challenging ... and my bike does not have the warning lamps.
The shell and mounting parts fitted to 650/750 '73-'78 had been fitted to the T100 from '71; faced with changing the headlamp on European bikes, I suspect someone looked at the T100 bits and the 650 bits ... and decided which was more "practical" ...
BAinLA
Well-Known Member
Rudie, I'm trying to sort this out, little at a time. What is "DPO"?
For the headlight, so between bulb cover and the battery +ve terminal? If so,
One source.
Single phase alternator, AC Voltmeter/setting will indicate something but it is a 'ripple' in the DC, should be only around 0.1V. AC from the alternator really getting through to the DC means either all four separate diodes in the rectifier have failed closed or the DPO was really stupid. And it would have screwed the battery.
Alternator on your bike is inside the primary chaincase. Original electrics:-
. Stator has a black 'cable' emerging from the inside face of the chaincase, routed over the top of the gearbox to the frame spine behind the engine. Two separate wires emerge from the end of the black insulation, one White/Green, the other Green/Yellow (no problem if the wire colours are not the same, but post if there are more than two wires). The two wires terminate in bullets, connected to the same colours wires in the main harness.
. The two wires emerge from the harness under the seat where the rectifier is mounted. Original rectifier looks like the drawing on parts book page 88. The alternator wires connect to the top and bottom spade terminals; the Brown/Blue wire between battery -ve and ignition switch connects to the centre spade terminal.
. The rectifier is connected across the battery. The Brown/Blue wire connects it to battery -ve; however, its connection to battery +ve might be poor - its mounting stud is +ve, if there is not a Red wire connected to a male spade terminal at one end of the stud,
. If the rectifier does not have a Red wire attached, and its connection to battery +ve is as I have described, I strongly advise improving it - similar to my previous advice for a better return from the Zener, length of Red wire between the rectifier and an existing Red wires snap connector, ring terminal on one end under the rectifier's securing nut to the "platform", bullet terminal on the other end into the snap connector. As your bike still uses points, adding this wire will also improve the condensers return path to battery +ve, which might reduce the sparking you are seeing across the points.
The above assumes the original rectifier and Zener diode have not been replaced with a combined regulator/rectifier; if they have, the alternator wires will likely connect to Yellow wires into the reg./rec.
Or the rectifier alone might have been replaced with:-
... (CBS is not the only source, I just linked his image).
Nevertheless, alternator and rectifier connected as above, ime it would be amazing for all four rectifier diodes all to have failed closed and be conducting alternator AC into your bike's DC wiring. More usual is one or more diode connections on an original multi-plate rectifier broken by a DPO, the rectifier then rectifies either only half the alternator output, or none at all.
Zener diode:-
As standard on all DC-electrics Triumphs between '66 and about '80, the Zener is connected across the battery - the Brown/Blue wire connects its male spade terminal to battery -ve; the Zener's mounting on the airbox, the airbox's connection to the battery carrier and one of the Red wires crimped in the ring terminal on a battery carrier bolt are the Zener's connection to battery +ve (as I posted earlier, the Red wiring can be much simpler
Most diodes conduct only in one direction (that's why it takes four to rectify AC to DC
However, a special property of specifically Zener diodes is: increase the Volts between spade and stud above about 13V and it starts to conduct, its resistance turning into heat current (Amps) generated by the alternator but not required by ignition, lights, charging the battery, etc. So it is not an 'on/off switch' as engine rpm/ alternator generation varies, a Zener conducts between -ve and +ve gradually over a range, Lucas supplied ~13V to ~15V.
AC entering the DC system, while a Zener could regulate one half of the AC wave, it would simply conduct the other half; my feeling is, at tickover, the 'conducting' half of the AC wave would be long enough to blow the fuse?
The headlight shell fitted to 650/750 '73-'78 is one of a number with the same basic shape fitted for decades, just differing in the number of holes for switches, warning lamps, etc.
The 'flatback' shell was fitted to some BSA's in the late 1960's but the first Triumphs fitted with it were the '69 triples, but they also had an unique mounting for speedometer, rev. counter, Voltmeter and warning lights. Intention to delete the Voltmeter '71-on, someone obviously thought the flatback shell could be modified for three warning lights, but I suspect you know how "practical" is fitting the headlamp with them?
If that did not scupper the flatback shell on its own, I suspect the decision to change the headlight type fitted to European bikes probably did; either for or sometime during '72, certainly bikes going to European countries were fitted with the headlight that US and UK bikes eventually got from part way through '77. The bulb type in this headlight has an H4 (three spade terminals) connection, fitting that headlamp type in the flatback shell is not impossible - one of my bikes has it - but it is ... challenging ... and my bike does not have the warning lamps.
The shell and mounting parts fitted to 650/750 '73-'78 had been fitted to the T100 from '71; faced with changing the headlamp on European bikes, I suspect someone looked at the T100 bits and the 650 bits ... and decided which was more "practical" ...
I'm taking off connectors and cleaning the crud and oxidation off of the male spades and cleaning the female ones with a points file. When I can build up a little more "confront" I'll begin looking deeper and perhaps running that ground wire. Meter is useless and goes berserk anywhere near the running machine. Thanks, Brian
Dumb Previous Owner
BAinLA
Well-Known Member
HAHA! I thought it had to be some mind-numbing advanced electrical acronym like "De-polarized Oscillation". )
BAinLA
Well-Known Member
Running great, looking a little better. Been brushing the cooling fins and purchased a can of Rustoleum Engine Gloss black but now I am hesitant to use it because if I do, the cylinders will be by far the best looking part of the bike and then I am committed to doing the rest of the bike and I will not have a rat bike but an expensive project.
Went for a 90 mile cruise yesterday with a very full tank and on a long uphill section of 60 MPH highway it started to starve for fuel and I pulled over after a few miles (large truck was on my tail and no turnouts) and determined that it was the ancient and surely gummed-up gas tank cap vent that was malfunctioning. Lucky I didn't melt a piston but what is the preffered method for restoring a gas cap to operating condition? -Thanks, Brian
Went for a 90 mile cruise yesterday with a very full tank and on a long uphill section of 60 MPH highway it started to starve for fuel and I pulled over after a few miles (large truck was on my tail and no turnouts) and determined that it was the ancient and surely gummed-up gas tank cap vent that was malfunctioning. Lucky I didn't melt a piston but what is the preffered method for restoring a gas cap to operating condition? -Thanks, Brian
Wouldn't hurt to spray Berryman's carb cleaner in the hole a few times
BAinLA
Well-Known Member
Makes sense. I'll give it a shot (no pun intended). -Brian
BAinLA
Well-Known Member
Things were going great until I fell off the back of my loaded '69 GMC and broke my left "humerus" (upper arm) bone. Never broke a bone in my 68+ rough and tumble years, (you know, except for that fractured skull when a lady ran a stop sign back in '75). It took 11 days to get it (the arm) fixed in place (insurance problem and inept "resident" doctor). Now I have stainless steel plates and screws holding the pieces together. I always thought they used titanium, maybe us lowly medicare folks are lucky they don't use pot metal. I'm not complaining. I miss riding the Tiger quite a bit but I miss working much, much more. Customers are missing inspection deadlines, I am missing income! Now I lost my best employee due to me not keeping him working.
Been 3 weeks now with the plates, so I can see the light at the end now. Soon, (another 3-4 weeks?) I will be back in the saddle. Today I put the battery on a tender since it's been 5 weeks since ridden. -BA out
Been 3 weeks now with the plates, so I can see the light at the end now. Soon, (another 3-4 weeks?) I will be back in the saddle. Today I put the battery on a tender since it's been 5 weeks since ridden. -BA out
Of all the dumb luck!
Heal well and soon.
Heal well and soon.
I am so sorry to hear of your misfortune. I hope you heal quickly, recover your business and get back on two wheels.
Heal well! Age doesn’t help us with ailments or accidents.
Sorry for your misfortune. Hope you heal quick.
speedrattle
Well-Known Member
the only bones ive ever broken have been from falling off moorcycles.
get back on as soon as.
get back on as soon as.
Sorry to hear about you fall, get well quick!
BAinLA
Well-Known Member
Got a new AGM battery since my old one had a bad cell and was usually at ~10v when I wanted to ride. $29.99 USD delivered. I suppose it should last for awhile anyway. Bike had become near impossible to start warm or hot, so I was always at my destination pushing the thing up hills or steep driveways or just kicking it for long periods in the blazing Southern California Heat. Not the type of exercise usually recommended for an old codger.
I figured that the flat battery wasn't helping. Not sure about the advanced theory involved but I needed a new one anyway.
Then I took my trusty drill-bit mounted on a small straw and cleared the pilot jet followed by liberal squirts of carb-cleaner. Didn't even have to take the carb off, which is a pain on this bike ('72).
Then I removed all the oil from the points chamber, filed the points a wee bit then re-gapped them. All standard maintenance. Now it starts right up. What a huge relief, now I can trust my bike again.-BA
This battery Fits perfectly and has pos. on the left;
I figured that the flat battery wasn't helping. Not sure about the advanced theory involved but I needed a new one anyway.
Then I took my trusty drill-bit mounted on a small straw and cleared the pilot jet followed by liberal squirts of carb-cleaner. Didn't even have to take the carb off, which is a pain on this bike ('72).
Then I removed all the oil from the points chamber, filed the points a wee bit then re-gapped them. All standard maintenance. Now it starts right up. What a huge relief, now I can trust my bike again.-BA
This battery Fits perfectly and has pos. on the left;
Mighty Max Battery YB9A-A 12V 9AH 130 CCA Battery Replaces Banshee 12N9-BS Motorcycle Brand Product. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B091MGR529?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
Glad you’ve obviously healed up! Great job on getting the motorcycle trustworthy again!
