Ah, okay… thanks for the data. I now know what I’ll be doing with one of those end compartments on the tail trunk…
Restoring & Modifying 1971 OIF TR120
- Thread starter NM Bonny
- Start date
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Ah, okay… thanks for the data. I now know what I’ll be doing with one of those end compartments on the tail trunk…
Lordmac
Well-Known Member
Four pounds, eh? Without that heavy OEM disc and caliper, I would'uh thought six, but hey, that means you can load up on Mexican food dinner and still be in class weight!
I really like your disc set-up, though. You know how the originals perform . . . real, uh, let's say shy. It might be cool if SOMEBODY had an easy-to-do kit for a direct replacement of the OEM caliper on T140s with light-weight aluminum or magnesium or palladium or beryllium or nuklearilium stuff. The few replacement parts out there I have seen don't make me too excited, you see.
Well, I don’t know how it compares to an OEM disc setup; that 4 lbs figure is vs. the OIF conical drum brake. A cast iron caliper could well be double the weight of the aluminum Wilwood model (that’s pretty typical for aluminum vs steel for [x] volume of metal)—and wouldn’t have 4 pots, but probably two. You get better modulation with several, smaller pots.
Why does it matter? Well, 4 lbs has a considerable moment of inertia, so with the existing springs and dampening in these forks, what you get is a more responsive suspension in terms of handling uneven pavement while leaned over in a sweeper—and a tire that’s in contact with the pavement for a greater percentage of [x] time frame during a hard stop on blacktop ripples, etc.
There is a British-made, big brake conversion that I think I posted to earlier in this thread—but it’s for OIF bikes with existing disc brakes, so wouldn’t fit my bike's triple tree width. Also, I didn’t like the way it looked… Yuck.
Ultimately, I like designing stuff and wanted the lightest possible, most powerful, simplest setup I could come up with. Also, using a Harley-spec rotor means a bazillion designs and competing vendors. Then there’s the aesthetics, and finally anticipating manufacturing considerations for the bespoke caliper adapter.
Put all those considerations together, and this is what I came up with. Far safer, easier to service, and downright sexy!
Never understood the complaints about the 73 onwards single disc on twins; I bought my T160 brand new with exactly the same parts, the single front disc only became marginal (I like good brakes) when I carried a passenger and/or I became able to use the engine's power (the T160's a good 50 lb heavier than a twin). I do wonder if some of the complaints are down to owners pottering about, using the brake gently most of the time, glazing the pads ...?
What pads are fitted in your T140's calipers?
There always has been: 70/71 Formula 750 triple racers had Lockheed aluminium alloy calipers more than two years before the road bikes got the steel calipers; the Co-op fitted a different version of the alloy calipers from 82 - all the alloy and steel calipers are based on those fitted to tuned versions of the 60s British Mini car. Current version is https://apracing.com/special-vehicles/motorcycle/brake-calipers/cp2696-38e0 I have three of the earlier handed versions on my T160.
There is a cheaper version by Wassell. Afaict, Wassell have somehow managed to get their hands on a version Lockheed licensed years ago to Grimeca, who metricated all the dimensions and threads; as with much Wassell stuff, several people I know who have fitted the calipers have had trouble with them.
Oldboy
Well-Known Member
I made new rubber hoses for my 750 Bonneville Chopper using appropriate size automotive fuel tank filler hose. You may have to look harder than I did back in the mid 1990s but it will support your carbs like they are solid mounted.
If you want extra security or dressup, go to a hardware store and buy a couple no hub connectors with the fluted aluminium wrapping and use the aluminum and stainless clamps over the hoses.
Yes my engine still uses the same rubber hoses I made in 1991.
Promise you will not need braces if you do this
I think NAPA still sells fuel filler hose. I feel like I bought some for a hot rod project a few years back… I’ll check it out. But these may be sufficient in combination with your next suggestion...
Wow… I never would’ve thought of no-hub connectors. I will see if they exist in the right dimensions for this bike. Cool!
Oldboy
Well-Known Member
You can buy one that's 1-1/2" I believe. You can also buy any size, drill the rivet and cut them down to size. Check my build on the 1973 T140V chopper and you may be able to see them in action.
I also use them to secure my air cleaners on the 38mm Lectrons I used but those are 3" and use Cummins Semi radiator hose and 2bbl car mini air cleaners.
You got a photo of the setup on your ’73 you can post…?
Very cool - thanks for posting!
Lordmac
Well-Known Member
Ferodo Premium Platinum, if I recall. They were the most expensive ones I could find at the time. I have tried and keep several different ones, just for fun.
Lordmac
Well-Known Member
I looked this caliper up and upon seeing it, (see below) I thought to myself - self, I have seen that caliper before. I have a photo of them both to compare the two:
They sure look similar.
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Lordmac
Well-Known Member
I find that the front disc works just fine. It's the rear I have issues with. After finally replacing the original (AP) master cylinder (because it could not be serviced) with a new LFHarris master, the rear brake works somewhat better, but still is not peachy. I cannot make it lock up if I try. Sometimes a guy wants to lock up the rear brake to enter a controlled, emergency slide, like if you are doing movie stunt-work or evading a fifteen-hundred pound bull elk.. The entire system has been gone through by the book and specs-out as it should, but the rear brake is simply not too great.
The "Girling" caliper is the Wassell one I mentioned in an earlier post - Wassell brands all its brake parts with the "Girling" name ... although by definition, because they fit Triumphs, they are all copies of parts that were originally Lockheed ...
Background - when the UK had a vehicle manufacturing industry, AP (Automotive Products) - that owned the Lockheed brand - and Girling were rival component suppliers to the vehicle makers. Girling did supply brake components but not to any of the British motorcycle makers, the only original Girling components either BSA/Triumph or Norton bought were rear shock absorbers.
Wassell never had any connection to either the original Girling company or to the original AP Lockheed. Wassell can use the "Lucas" brand on the electrical components it has made simply because it pays the current "Lucas" rights owner. Wassell can do the same with the "Girling" name on brake parts either because it similarly pays the current "Girling" rights owner or it has bought the name and rights.
You could not service the rear master cylinder because it was corroded? Otherwise it can be serviced, it is exactly the same as the front one.
However, if you cannot lock the brake, something definitely wrong - assuming your bike has the caliper under the rear axle, it has exactly the same parts as the T160, and I hated that with the original long brake lever because it was so easy to lock up ...
Before you fitted the Harris master cylinder, did you check its adjustment as in the AP Lockheed Service Instructions?
When you bled the brake, did you ensure the caliper was the lowest part of the system, if necessary by lowering it to the ground after either unbolting the caliper from its mounting plate or detaching the mounting plate and caliper from the axle? That said, I replaced the standard mixture of steel pipe and rubber hose between master cylinder and caliper with a single piece of Goodridge braided hose (incorporating a proper hydraulic brake switch to replace the mickey mouse mechanical switch by the lever). Rear disc brake bleeding is a lot easier ...
Talking of hoses, have you replaced them? AP Lockheed said theirs should be replaced after ten years at most. If they are older, one problem is they can begin to delaminate; if that is inside, delaminated hose casing can block the hose.
Well, this ’71 T120R Unit 650 just runs better every time I throw a leg over the saddle. It’s now 1 kick every time, dead cold or warmed up. I am very curious to see how it behaves on a really hot day. The ’51 FL is notorious for vapor locking, so eager to see what’s what...
I got some tees and 1/8” carb vent hose, and cleaned up the six (count ‘em!) vent and overflow lines on the Mikunis (see 1st pic).
Seems like between 4,500 and 5,000 is a real sweet spot for cruising down HWY 313 parallel to I-25. And anywhere in the four grand area, it really wants to go when you roll on the throttle—unsurprisingly, I suppose, no comparison to the top gear roll-on in the 'Part 1' video I posted a while back, which started at 3,000 (too lazy to shift, I guess).
Regardless, just really happy with the Mikuni + Dunstall replicas combo—and that’s with out-of-the-box jetting from MAP Cycle, which I’ll bet would be even closer at sea level. Haven’t yet taken the time to dial in the jetting per Speedrattle’s generous instructions in the Vintage Tour thread (and I may just rig up my AFI gauge for that process). But as it’s running a tad rich, no huge hurry, as I’m not going to burn an exhaust valve or anything...
Finally: now that it’s warming up, I seem to default to the Bonny (rather than the Beemer) for smaller errands and moderate-sized grocery runs. Zipped down to Albuquerque this am for some chai concentrate, and put the little tank bag I bought for this bike across the rear of the 2-up saddle (because I’m still paranoid about the custom paint on the tank). Works great for mini errands like that: 5 quarts and some small items fit right in.
I’ll stop saying it (eventually), but I’m very glad Sikitri inspired me to fit the aluminum, Ducati-style fairing. That plus the rear-sets and low bars nets really comfortable cruising at speed, even with a gusty headwind like I had this am coming back up along the river.
I got some tees and 1/8” carb vent hose, and cleaned up the six (count ‘em!) vent and overflow lines on the Mikunis (see 1st pic).
Seems like between 4,500 and 5,000 is a real sweet spot for cruising down HWY 313 parallel to I-25. And anywhere in the four grand area, it really wants to go when you roll on the throttle—unsurprisingly, I suppose, no comparison to the top gear roll-on in the 'Part 1' video I posted a while back, which started at 3,000 (too lazy to shift, I guess).
Regardless, just really happy with the Mikuni + Dunstall replicas combo—and that’s with out-of-the-box jetting from MAP Cycle, which I’ll bet would be even closer at sea level. Haven’t yet taken the time to dial in the jetting per Speedrattle’s generous instructions in the Vintage Tour thread (and I may just rig up my AFI gauge for that process). But as it’s running a tad rich, no huge hurry, as I’m not going to burn an exhaust valve or anything...
Finally: now that it’s warming up, I seem to default to the Bonny (rather than the Beemer) for smaller errands and moderate-sized grocery runs. Zipped down to Albuquerque this am for some chai concentrate, and put the little tank bag I bought for this bike across the rear of the 2-up saddle (because I’m still paranoid about the custom paint on the tank). Works great for mini errands like that: 5 quarts and some small items fit right in.
I’ll stop saying it (eventually), but I’m very glad Sikitri inspired me to fit the aluminum, Ducati-style fairing. That plus the rear-sets and low bars nets really comfortable cruising at speed, even with a gusty headwind like I had this am coming back up along the river.
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Lordmac
Well-Known Member
It was not corroded at all. Check out this AP Lockheed Service Manual note which declares master cylinders after early September 1977 are not serviceable. Real cool, huh? Mine is a November 1977 make, and let me tell you, I destroyed the thing TRYING to get it apart:
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Lordmac
Well-Known Member
I used and followed the AP Lockheed Serive Manual to the letter. Have recently replaced all brake master cylinders, parts, hoses, pads and fluid front and rear. Serviced the calipers with new seals, front and rear. All adjustments and bleeding procedures done as specified. The brake pedal travel is normal and is not squishy. I have not replaced the steel pipes because they are not blocked and fluid flows easily through them, front and rear. The pads do not drag when pressure is off indicating the piston are not seizing. They can easily be moved inward with a prying device. There are no leaks in any of the pressure circuits. There are no leaks anywhere. The discs are clean and no foreign substances can be detected.
