Need Help Identifying Year Of Manufacture

[indianabiscuit]

I’m hoping to pull the trigger on an old 5T Speed Twin. It’s in an old man’s shed and he may sell it to me. I’ve got a photo of the engine number, which to me indicates 1953, but the one lousy picture from the front seems to resemble a newer bike. From this limited info, could anyone help narrow down the year of this bike? I need to come up with a fair offer for it.

 

[atomsplitter]

It's worth what you are willing to pay, or what he's willing to take for it. It's not possible to judge the value of a barn find since you don't know how deep the river of cash is going to be restoring it. True story, I had a coworker tell me he had a 74 Suzuki GT 550 Indy in his barn and it had been there for 25 years. I said I could restore it if he was willing to pay for the restoration. I acquired the bike and after going over it I gave him my estimate for getting it road ready. He handed me the title, signed.

Finished product: (NOTE: Paint was applied in 1977 and still good) Left side panel was replaced after it was lost on a 30 mile test ride.

 

[speedrattle]

does he have a clear title for the machine? depending on where you live, that can be very significant.

 

[indianabiscuit]

does he have a clear title for the machine? depending on where you live, that can be very significant.

I don’t know. It’s complicated. This old man has old cars and motorcycles stashed all over his property. They actually belong to a lifelong friend who has been storing all his crap there for 18 years…no indication that he’ll sell or relocate any of it. The old man wants it all gone so his son won’t have to deal with it when he passes. He’s 80. I’m gonna try to connect with his friend, the owner, but my guy is certain he won’t sell because he never has. The old man has contacted a lawyer to learn his rights with regard to abandoned property. With regard to making an offer to the owner, I want to be informed and fair based on the year and condition of the bike. I need to start with identifying the year so I can research. Again, the engine number indicates 1953 (I think) but the front end looks like a newer bike. I’m not very familiar with the bikes…I need some help.

 

[Rudie]

I want to be informed and fair based on the year and condition of the bike. I need to start with identifying the year so I can research. Again, the engine number indicates 1953 (I think) but the front end looks like a newer bike.
I need some help.

Readers need some help. While the engine number is 53, anyone who can give good advice about a fair price is going to want to know the frame number and see pictures of both sides of the bike. So far, we do not even know if the bike is in Triumph cycle parts?

I’m not very familiar with the bikes…

I wonder why you would start with a 70 year old bike, even if it is complete? There might be more spares available for old Triumphs than other makes but it is relative; quantitively, there are are just not that many spares for 70 year old Triumphs.

 

[Bloodknot]

Readers need some help. While the engine number is 53, anyone who can give good advice about a fair price is going to want to know the frame number and see pictures of both sides of the bike. So far, we do not even know if the bike is in Triumph cycle parts?


I wonder why you would start with a 70 year old bike, even if it is complete? There might be more spares available for old Triumphs than other makes but it is relative; quantitively, there are are just not that many spares for 70 year old Triumphs.

This is not the case here in the UK. The 5T shares many components with the 3T & 6T.

 

[indianabiscuit]

Readers need some help. While the engine number is 53, anyone who can give good advice about a fair price is going to want to know the frame number and see pictures of both sides of the bike. So far, we do not even know if the bike is in Triumph cycle parts?


I wonder why you would start with a 70 year old bike, even if it is complete? There might be more spares available for old Triumphs than other makes but it is relative; quantitively, there are are just not that many spares for 70 year old Triumphs.

Why?…Because I like the bike, and I think it would be a cool project. Of course, the one crappy picture doesn’t really provide much info. I’ll work on getting more…bike is in eastern VA…I’m in Knoxville, TN. The old man is not very adept at taking photos so I’ll need to get some myself.

 

[Bloodknot]

The information I have to hand tells me that it’s was produced in 1953, a rigid frame pre-unit engine model and the cartwheel symbol between the 5T and the engine number indicates that it has silencing ramps on the cams which will use a 10 thou valve clearance rather than the usual 2 thou inlet 4 thou exhaust.

It was built at Coventry not Meriden and because the next year’s engine numbers started at 44135 it could possibly be 54 model year. My own 6T was delivered to the dealer in October1960 but it is a 61 Model spec machine.

Do you have any more photographs or a note of the gearbox number? I see that it has a distributor/coil ignition system not magneto. This change happened in 1953. If it’s the telescopic front forks that leads you to believe it may be a later machine they were introduced in 1943 but the swinging arm models didn’t start until 1955. The one thing that does puzzle me is that it appears to have an air scoop on the front brake plate. A simple modification to the 7” front brake. I have fitted a twin leading shoe front brake from later model year machines to my bike.

And you may wonder where did I get this information from? Most came from the Triumph Oracle database which is temporarily unavailable, but according to its owner will once again be available in April 2024. Below you will see a photo of just one of the hundreds of documents in the database including owners, workshop, component manufacturer manuals plus many other gems. It does not include anything on the Hinckley machines, just Meriden and before.

 

[indianabiscuit]

The information I have to hand tells me that it’s was produced in 1953, a rigid frame pre-unit engine model and the cartwheel symbol between the 5T and the engine number indicates that it has silencing ramps on the cams which will use a 10 thou valve clearance rather than the usual 2 thou inlet 4 thou exhaust.

It was built at Coventry not Meriden and because the next year’s engine numbers started at 44135 it could possibly be 54 model year. My own 6T was delivered to the dealer in October1960 but it is a 61 Model spec machine.

Do you have any more photographs or a note of the gearbox number? I see that it has a distributor/coil ignition system not magneto. This change happened in 1953. If it’s the telescopic front forks that leads you to believe it may be a later machine they were introduced in 1943 but the swinging arm models didn’t start until 1955. The one thing that does puzzle me is that it appears to have an air scoop on the front brake plate. A simple modification to the 7” front brake. I have fitted a twin leading shoe front brake from later model year machines to my bike.

And you may wonder where did I get this information from? Most came from the Triumph Oracle database which is temporarily unavailable, but according to its owner will once again be available in April 2024. Below you will see a photo of just one of the hundreds of documents in the database including owners, workshop, component manufacturer manuals plus many other gems. It does not include anything on the Hinckley machines, just Meriden and before.

View attachment 56548

Thank you! That’s the most informative answer I’ve received so far. I am planning to visit Virginia again this week and will take plenty of much better photos. Is there anything in particular that you’d like see captured to help gain a more thorough understanding of this particular bike?

 

[Bloodknot]

Thank you! That’s the most informative answer I’ve received so far. I am planning to visit Virginia again this week and will take plenty of much better photos. Is there anything in particular that you’d like see captured to help gain a more thorough understanding of this particular bike?

Gearbox number, front brake plate, tank badge, complete machine from both sides, close ups from both sides of the engine/gearbox/primary chaincase assemblies and a rider’s view of the nacelle/instrument cluster.

 

[indianabiscuit]

Gearbox number, front brake plate, tank badge, complete machine from both sides, close ups from both sides of the engine/gearbox/primary chaincase assemblies and a rider’s view of the nacelle/instrument cluster.

Gotcha. I’ll have them within the next few days. Thanks again.

 

[speedrattle]

more pitchers too

 

[Rudie]

It was built at Coventry not Meriden

Curious about this, as I knew the main Triumph works in Coventry was destroyed in November 1940 and Meriden started producing during 1942. What is the background?

 

[Rudie]

Why?…Because I like the bike, and I think it would be a cool project.

If you get the bike and do not have the wrenches already, most US vendors call them "Whitworth" although Snap-On correctly call them "British Standard" ...

Unlike other wrenches, the fractions stamped on Whitworth/British Standard do not refer to a hex AF but to the corresponding thread's "major diameter" - the male thread nominal o.d. However, a wrench will have two fractions stamped on it, the smaller one with "W", the larger one with "BS" (yes, unfortunate abbreviation ...); e.g. https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-uxartfa4u7/images/stencil/original/carousel/3/crows-2.jpg?c=1

The background is:-

. Whitworth was the first (in 1841) to come up with a thread and hex standard (before then, different British manufacturers made their own fasteners and tools to fit).

. However, as speeds of particularly mobile machinery increased generally, the coarse (few threads per inch) Whitworth threads allowed vibration to loosen fasteners easily. By the early 1900's, metallurgy had improved that finer threads (more per inch) could take high torques and the hex could be smaller for any given diameter. Enter "British Standard Fine" thread in 1908, that still used Whitworth hex sizes because, by then, the tools to fit were in widespread use, just one Whitworth hex smaller for each major diameter (e.g. 5/16" Whitworth and 3/8" British Standard use the same wrench).

. As other threadforms were adopted as British Standards, they have same relationship between hex AF and major diameters as BSF.

While Triumph used primarily BSF threads on the engine (into aluminium alloy parts), they used an even finer threadform - British Standard Cycle, helpfully abbeviated to "CEI" by Triumph ... (and aka just "Cycle") - into steel and iron, so bolts and screws into nuts, the cylinder block, etc. ...

If you get the bike, British Tools & Fasteners are likely to become your new best friends ...?

 

[Bloodknot]

@indianabiscuit I very occasionally have access to the factory records but would not wish to overuse or abuse this facility but the following information Is shown.

However the gearbox number will determine whether it is the OE fit and confirm the type of rear end it should have.

In the meantime I can advise the following:-

5T39098 engine built on 2nd April 1953 and fitted with ramp profile cams, 6 volt alternator and distributor / coil ignition. The bike was assembled on the same day and had gearbox No.35358 and MKll Rear Spring Wheel (rigid frame). It was dispatched to Triumph Corporation, Baltimore, USA on 7th May 1953.

I said in my earlier post that the air scoop on the front brake plate puzzled me. My source tells me that it could be a 'pie crust flange' front brake drum which is what I believe is fitted to this bike. It was only made for 1954 and fitted to the T100 & first year T110. After that, the brake plate continued but the pie crust was replaced with a circular flange spoke ring on the brake drum. See image below.

Check the frame for the number and to see if it's rigid or swing arm. The 1954 model T100 & T110 got the swing arm, the 5T, 6T & TR5 didn't get it until a year later, 1955. It's entirely possible the bike is a 1954 T100 or T110 and the 5T engine has been fitted? The rigid and swing arm gearboxes are completely different and are not interchangeable.

Looking forward to your confirmation of the gearbox number and further photos. The one thing I didn’t tell you about the Triumph Oracle database was its price. Here in the UK when available it sells for less than £20 GBP but for you guys there will be a tad more to pay for post & packaging. Normally it comes on a DVD but is also available on a USB flash drive.

 

[Bloodknot]

Curious about this, as I knew the main Triumph works in Coventry was destroyed in November 1940 and Meriden started producing during 1942. What is the background?

I will try and confirm that but that is what the reference document I showed earlier said.

 

[Bloodknot]

Curious about this, as I knew the main Triumph works in Coventry was destroyed in November 1940 and Meriden started producing during 1942. What is the background?

Apologies, you are correct. Having looked again at the dating book there is better detail on later pages which says the 5T Speed Twin was made in the years 1937-39 and 1946-66 at Coventry/Meriden.

 

[Bloodknot]

@indianabiscuit When do you expect to confirm gearbox number and show us more photos?

 

[indianabiscuit]

Thanks to everyone so far who has provided insight regarding my likely 1953 Triumph project. I’ve managed to take a bunch of new pictures. I’ve learned that this bike was essentially “built” by the original owner. I think that explains my inability to find some of the factory stamped numbers and components. Knowing that, I’m really unsure what to offer for it. I’m not trying to flip this bike. I just wanna have a framework within which I could make a fair offer. I really like this little bike.

 

[Bloodknot]

Thanks to everyone so far who has provided insight regarding my likely 1953 Triumph project. I’ve managed to take a bunch of new pictures. I’ve learned that this bike was essentially “built” by the original owner. I think that explains my inability to find some of the factory stamped numbers and components. Knowing that, I’m really unsure what to offer for it. I’m not trying to flip this bike. I just wanna have a framework within which I could make a fair offer. I really like this little bike.

Did you find the gearbox number?