T140V Timing-side Electric Start Conversion

[solomon]

A conversion kit is on its way to me
It's second hand, so no instructions.

Not sure that there's a bush included. Is that brass a bush?

Does anyone know a link to a video, etc. to help?

I know timing-side starting is problematic if a backfire happens, don't need any stories about that!

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This is like the kit I'm getting:

https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/electric-start-conversion-kit-t120-t140
This from same seller
https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/electric-start-assy-t140
states... This same assembly can be used to convert a T120 and Non electric start T140V/E models but for these models, you must first modify the timing idler gear bush on the crankcase as this needs strengthening

Is this a bush into crankcase? Supposedly engine doesn't need splitting to fit these starters.

It's for starting when hot mainly. And when I get older/knee gets worse. Not going to be a high use item.

 

[solomon]

This must be the bush mentioned.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/18386834...vMlBMwqTL-&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPYDo I really need to take bike and engine apart to take crankcase to a machine shop?

 

[triumph david]

This is interesting, might be something i will be needing in a few years, age and all of that!

 

[Rudie]

This is like the kit I'm getting:
https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/electric-start-conversion-kit-t120-t140
This from same seller
https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/electric-start-assy-t140states... This same assembly can be used to convert a T120 and Non electric start T140V/E models but for these models, you must first modify the timing idler gear bush on the crankcase as this needs strengthening

It's second hand, so no instructions.
Is this a bush into crankcase?
Not sure that there's a bush included. Is that brass a bush?

Why not just ask L.P. Williams?

Also, is this the same T140V as in your T140 Custom thread?

Original handlebar switches included a button for the starter, button has plain White and White/Red wires. White/Red wire energises the starter relay you will need if it is not included in the kit. The relay will also require:-

. An earth wire to correspond with the White/Red wire.

. A 28 strand wire fused supply from the battery -ve terminal. You might have to experiment with fuse ratings until you find the one that does not blow when the button is first pressed and the starter solenoid engages ...

. Another 28-strand wire from the relay to the solenoid.

Does the bike have points or electronic ignition? If points:-

. you will be wise to swap to 6V coils and fit a ballast resistor in their supply from/return to the kill switch (or ignition switch if kill switch not fitted/used);

. the ballast resistor is bypassed by a wire from a fifth terminal on the starter relay; in this case, the starter relay will need to be a particular type, not all 5-terminal relays are suitable.

 

[solomon]

Why not just ask L.P. Williams

I'm not buying from them, it's a used item, so cheeky...

Also, is this the same T140V as in your T140 Custom thread

No. It's a '72 Bonneville with negative earth, three-phase alternator.

. A 28 strand wire fused supply from the battery -ve terminal

Thanks

Does the bike have points or electronic ignition? If points you will be wis

Wassel e.i. Doesn't kick back. Would use kickstart for setting up timing .
Battery is new, although might now upgrade to Motobatt.

swap to 6V coils

A 12v dual coil is fitted. This okay? Works well at present.

Another 28-strand wire from the relay to the solenoid.

Thanks

Original handlebar switches included a button for the starter, b

I have a spare push on the '72 cluster.

. the ballast resistor is bypassed by a wire from a fifth terminal on the starter relay; in this case, the starter relay will need to be a particular type, not all 5-terminal relays are suitable

The kit comes with a solenoid. Don't think there's a separate relay involved?? Don't know how many terminals yet, haven't received it yet.

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Will I get away without a brass bush in crankcase? The extra strain is only at using starter? Or is there extra weight of various bits continuously whirring?

 

[solomon]

The Haynes manual has the electric start models wiring diagram.
I might be able to decipher it a bit...

 

[sikatri]

Will it work both kick and electric or does the electric start replace the kickstart?

 

[Rudie]

'72 Bonneville
Battery is new, although might now upgrade to Motobatt.

The physically largest battery that will fit in the bike's battery carrier is the Motobatt MB9U. That is rated for 11 Ah (Amp-hours). The Co-op fitted electric start twins with a 14.5 Ah Yuasa battery.

Wassel e.i.
12v dual coil

E.i., coils are supplied by the e.i. switch box, its components essentially work with 12V so a ballast resistor cannot be used.

I have a spare push on the '72 cluster.
The kit comes with a solenoid. Don't think there's a separate relay involved?

There should be.

The Haynes manual shows the handlebar starter button connected directly to the solenoid. Early 1970's handlebar switches, this is a stupid idea - the solenoid draws between 20 and 40 Amps when it first connects, there is no way the button contacts were intended to transmit that current. As a comparison, the same switches are fitted to early 1970's triples, with twin horns that draw about 5A; the horn button is connected to a relay that switches the horns themselves. The switch-relay-solenoid connections described in my previous post are from the T160, the Lucas M3 starter fitted by the Co-op to the twins is exactly the same.

You might wish to do more research into real Co-op electric start twin wiring and components?

Will I get away without a brass bush in crankcase? The extra strain is only at using starter? Or is there extra weight of various bits continuously whirring?

The Co-op electric start mechanicals were poor. The basic idea of using the timing gears to turn the crankshaft of a large capacity twin is a bad one. Many components broke - when the Co-op beefed up one that broke, the next one in the train broke, they beefed up that one, the next one broke ... They beefed up all timing chest components except the crankcase, the Co-op broke before they could beef that up.

So wise to check with someone knowledgeable about late Triumph electric starts that you have all the beefed up components? Nonetheless, I really would not try to "get away" with anything, afaict it is likely to be an expensive mistake.

 

[solomon]

Will it work both kick and electric or does the electric start replace the kickstart?

Kickstart remains. And is advisable to use when engine is cold when kickback could damage engine components.

The Co-op electric start mechanicals were poor. The basic idea of using the timing gears to turn the crankshaft of a large capacity twin is a bad one

Yes, I know. It's just an emergency route. For example, stall in traffic, have someone on the back. Recently tried kickstarting on ice. Bike kept sliding around.

The primary side kits are £2,500. Whilst much better, I'd rather keep my timing hole and primary chain, and the excess money. It's lost money on a bike of my value.

My bike rarely kicks back, as far as I remember, only when timing needed sorting. Never when hot. I'm getting older (obviously). I might damage my bike. But not being included to spend £2,500 on a primary starter, I'm knowingly risking damage to my bike, to make things easier for me in the future.

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I have contacted someone, who advises me the following...
As standard, the idler pinion spindle is a press fit in the crankcase, ... the electric start idler and spindle are spinning all the time the engine is running
So does look like the brass bush is needed. Looks like splitting the crankcase...
Not to worry. A future project in a couple of years, when I can vapour blast casing and spray tinwork. I will fit beforehand though, without bush to test.

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Btw, despite all the bad publicity of the timing starter, this bike did a 90,000 miles ride with no electric starter problems:


View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/29549002@N07/6162160339

 

[solomon]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Full-Circle-Motorcycle-Sidecar-Motorcycling/dp/085429662X
Maybe I should read it?

Must have always used starter motor with that sidecar?

 

[sikatri]

If you’re taking it more apart in a few years you can probably do some beefing up if you think it’s necessary at that time. I kind wish my newer model Triumph had a kickstart for a backup. I like the idea of options.

 

[solomon]

The switch-relay-solenoid connections described in my previous post are from the T160, the Lucas M3 starter fitted by the Co-op to the twins is exactly the same

Thanks. I'll research the T160 Trident. Might find more/better info.

Suppose it's easier to turn over 3x 250ccs than 2x 375ccs...

 

[solomon]

For info, the Triumph electric start doesn't tolerate well the engine kicking back because of a sprag clutch...

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CFKsOhuGhno


I can't remember my bike kicking back, but would only take one time to cause damage, so I might, when electric start is fitted, retard timing a couple of degrees after it's set up.

The kit new, and the one I'm buying used, comes with a relay/solenoid...

E.i., coils are supplied by the e.i. switch box, its components essentially work with 12V so a ballast resistor cannot be used

I can't see any references to "ballast resistors" anywhere, or the need to use 6V coils. The Williams kit does not include ballast resistors either. What is their purpose in relation to the starter? Thanks.

 

[solomon]

can't see any references to "ballast resistors" anywhere, or the need to use 6V coils. The Williams kit does not include ballast resistors either. What is their purpose in relation to the starter

Ok, found info. For reference, 12V coils might not fire properly if starter motor causes voltage across them to drop below 12V. 6V coils avoid this risk, and possible backfire.

 

[Rudie]

"ballast resistors"
What is their purpose in relation to the starter?

Are you sitting comfortably?

The 'Volts' of a coil intended to be switched by points relate to its primary resistance and that such coils draw between 3 and 4 Amps when the rated Volts are applied across them. The connection is Ohm's Law - Volts = Amps x Ohms - 12V across a coil so rated, its primary resistance is between 4 and 3 Ohms respectively to draw between 3 and 4 Amps; otoh, 6V across a coil so rated, its primary resistance is between 2 and 1.5 Ohms respectively to draw between 3 and 4 Amps.

The T160 uses a system common on early vehicles with points and electric starters:-

. The electrics are 12V but the ballast resistor in the supply to the '6V' coil (plural on a T160) means two individual resistances are connected in series - same principle if any of your twins has e.i. and two separate 6V coils connected to the electronics 'box' in series.

. The starter relay switches a separate supply from the battery, the relay has a terminal connected to the coils bypassing the ballast resistor.

. Reason for this is the electric starter in use could reduce the Volts available from the battery below 12V; if the vehicle was fitted with (a) 12V coil(s), this would cause unreliable starting. Otoh, starter relay activated, it connecting its separate supply from the battery to the coil(s) bypassing the ballast resistor, while the battery might be supplying less than 12V, that it is more than 6V across a "6V" coil means the coil(s) is(are) more likely to generate a spark and start the engine. Engine started, rider/driver releases the starter button or ignition key position, starter relay disconnects, the vehicle's 6V coil(s) is(are) supplied from the battery only through the ballast resistor.

I can't see any references to "ballast resistors"
The Williams kit does not include ballast resistors.

You will not find any references to ballast resistors in anything specifically about Meriden electric starters because, several years before Meriden fitted starters, the ignition had been changed to Lucas Rita e.i.

The reason the above system cannot be used with any e.i. is the e.i. 'box' is always between battery -ve and the coil(s), the Volts across an e.i. 'box' cannot be reduced by connecting it in series with a ballast resistor because then the 'box' electronics would not work.

Otoh:-

I'll research the T160

... do you require a T160 wiring diagram with the ballast resistor highlighted?

I can't see any references to
the need to use 6V coils.

Here you are confused:-

. my post #4:-

Does the bike have points or electronic ignition? If points:-
. you will be wise to swap to 6V coils and fit a ballast resistor

. Your post #5:-

Wassel e.i.
12v dual coil

... in the Wassell fitting instructions (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...ion-Triumph-BSA-Norton-INSTRUCTIONS.pdf?12454 if you have lost the originals), the wiring diagrams clearly show one 12V "dual" (two HT leads) coil can substitute for two separate 6V coils connected in series.

 

[Rudie]

12V coils might not fire properly if starter motor causes voltage across them to drop below 12V. 6V coils avoid this risk, and possible backfire.

But this applies only to points ignition, not to any electronic ignition. Your bike fitted with electronic ignition, two 6V coils would be connected to its electronics 'box' in series, two 6V coils would simply be the equivalent of the one 12V dual HT lead coil you posted is on the bike now.

 

[solomon]

Thanks for the info top-up.

Engine started, rider/driver releases the starter button or ignition key position, starter relay disconnects, the vehicle's 6V coil(s) is(are) supplied from the battery only through the ballast resistor.

Ok. Clever.

do you require a T160 wiring diagram with the ballast resistor highlighted

I'll be sticking with the dual coil and e.i. might help other members who have points though.

*
Will post pictures of conversion kit when I receive it.

Maybe I'll sketch a wiring circuit and post?

 

[solomon]

The kit has arrived. I'll post some examining pictures tomorrow.

For now, I don't see how to do this:

. A 28 strand wire fused supply from the battery -ve terminal. You might have to experiment with fuse ratings until you find the one that does not blow when the button is first pressed and the starter solenoid engages

The starter has little to no impedance. Starters don't typically have a fuse? Would be rated so high wouldn't really be of use? Battery can put out over 100 amps on cranking.

Could fuse the relay circuit between relay and starter button (WR line).

 

[Rudie]

For now, I don't see how to do this:

Because you are not reading/quoting my post correctly ... The complete context is:-

Original handlebar switches included a button for the starter, button has plain White and White/Red wires. White/Red wire energises the starter relay
The relay will also require:-

. A 28 strand wire fused supply from the battery -ve terminal. You might have to experiment with fuse ratings until you find the one that does not blow when the button is first pressed and the starter solenoid engages ...

I also posted:-

The switch-relay-solenoid connections described in my previous post are from the T160

... and you posted:-

I'll research the T160

Starters don't typically have a fuse?

Because their low impedance means they draw a large current when operating; what would a fuse protect?

Btw: the highest I have seen a T160 Lucas M3 starter draw is 155 Amps; also as you have posted, it is easier to get a 250 cc cylinder past compression than a 375 cc one ...

Could fuse the relay circuit between relay and starter button (WR line).

I believe I would. The "relay/solenoid" you pictured in your post #13 is different from the T160's; if the Haynes wiring diagram you have is correct, a low Amp fuse in the White/Red wire would prevent any failure in the "relay/solenoid" passing starter current through the White/Red wire and handlebar starter button.

second hand, so no instructions.

'72 Bonneville with negative earth

Your bike currently has one or more thin electrical component supply 'earth' wires connected to battery -ve? If yes, ime another modification:-

. The kit should include a thick starter supply 'earth' cable, to be connected between battery -ve and an engine mounting bolt, the latter because the starter 'earths' through its mounting to the engine.

. When the thick starter supply cable is installed, never reconnect any thin supply wires directly to the battery -ve terminal. Reason is:-

.. if either you ever forget to reconnect the thick starter supply cable after maintenance, or that thick cable somehow becomes disconnected from the engine, if you do have any thin component supply wires connected directly to the battery -ve terminal, when you press the starter button, any of those thin wires can become part of the starter circuit ...

.. otoh:-

... if only the thick starter supply cable is connected directly to the battery -ve terminal;

... all thin component supply wires are connected to an engine fastener;

... because the other end of the thick starter supply cable is connected to an engine mounting bolt, this cable is the supply from battery -ve to all electrical components.

Also, if only the thick starter supply cable is connected directly to the battery -ve terminal, not only are you much less likely to forget to reconnect the cable after maintenance, if the cable ever becomes disconnected, it is immediately obvious because electrical components stop working.

The only component supply wire I would continue to connect directly to the battery -ve terminal is the e.i. supply wire because:-

. this reduces the likelihood of electrical 'spikes' caused by other components affecting the e.i.;

. I include a low Amps fuse in this wire to protect the e.i. as a matter of course.

 

[solomon]

Here's my timing-side conversion kit.

It weighs in total around 7.5kg. In centre of bike, at axle height, don't see that effecting me much.

All the parts are available as spares, indeed this was all standard on the T140ES.

Relay solenoid, Lucas starter, T140ES cover and mechanisms. Removed for illustration is the intermediate spindle and pinions. The sprag clutch can be seen.

Standard T140 timing cover.

The T140ES starter mechanism and cover below a standard T140 timing chest. The existing small (crank timing) pinion should be replaced with a specially hardened one. LP Williams sell these, and are on eBay.

The crankcase needs boring to accept a bush the intermediate spindle will spin in.

*


A kickback when starting bike can cause damage because there's no provision in the mechanism to accommodate backwards movement.
Kickback risk can be lessened by:
# A battery with high cranking amps, such as a Motobatt.
# always keep battery fully charged.
# use electronic ignition that tolerates a drop to low voltage
# Timing must be good, not advanced. Slight retardation might not be a bad idea.
# absolutely use only kickstart when first setting advance on engine timing.
# Use when engine is hot, not cold.
# free clutch, and tickle and prime with kickstart first.
# any sign of engine misbehaving, use kickstart until sorted.

Above points are for electronic ignition. Points and coils have other considerations.


and lastly...

here it is loosely in place. It's not going on this bike, I happen to have timing side open on it.
I think it looks better than before! Gives it a pre-unit look. Love the curves!


Won't be fitting for a couple of years or more. Ready for when I strip engine. Now I don't need to worry about aging.