Removing The Cam Chain Tensioner T100 2020 Engine.

[nickjaxe]

I'd be suspicious of it being the tensioner. The tensioner only pushes against the cam chain slipper to hold tension on the chain. Years ago I changed out my Rocket III airbox for pod filters and on my first drive down the road heard a herd of crickets from the motor's engine bay that hadn't been there before. Turned out it was valve train noise was coming thru the pods but had been masked by the snorkel and distriburtion header from the airbox. If you're hearing a ticking noise it's likely the valve train opening and closing with more gap between bucket shim to cam lobe cold that disappears when the motor is warmed up. Not saying that's 100% it, but from the descriptions I've been reading it seems a lot more likely than a cam chanin tensioner.

I am not convinced its the chain tensioner either.....just wasn't to check it over to rule it out.

If it were slack valve gaps I would hear it soon as the bike starts up.....but I dont....I hear it maybe 30secs after a cold start......lasts 2 to 3 mins a goes....started at 500 right after first oil change.

Valve gaps was one of the first things I checked....exhaust gaps were to big....re shimmed.....made zero difference.

Spoke to lots of owners with the same prob....and it started after the first oil change.

Heard the put thinker SAE 30 running in oil in these motors when new and warn do not leave in longer than 500mls.

The thicker oil could be connected.

Found out recently.....Triumph Have sent out a circular to dealer and amended the hand book....when changing oil refill the motor before fitting the oil filter.....as air lock can form in lube sys.

Something is going on.....I wonder if air gets tapped in the sys.....maybe its stuck there.

causing probs......Triumph thought it import enough to do what they did.

Anybody any ideas about that.

Something I have never heard of before.

 

[sikatri]

If it hasn’t changed in the past few years I would look at it as a positive sign. I know it’s not the same, but as I noted my 2009 MINI JCW has been doing it since it was pretty much new. Recheck the easy things, but I wouldn’t start a major operation over it. It’s likely you take it apart and after tons of money and time the ticking is still there. These can be nothing or a sign of something. If it hasn’t changed, I’d do minimal and just things that relate to tuning up. That’s my thoughts. Does this bike have fuel injectors? It could be just that in which case I wouldn’t worry.

 

[atomsplitter]

If your T-100 is anything like my T-120, Bobber, or Thruxton R the filter is vertically mounted on the bottom of the engine and a lot of oil comes out when you pull the filter. Air locking is possible with any fluid system. It makes me wonder exactly what the handbook is saying. I know when I change oil on my twins I fill the oil filter before fitting it and then filling the engine. That said I actually spend the time to fill the filter, it takes about 5 minutes because it's dry paper and it takes awhile to get all the air out of the filter. My son-in-law gave me a hand a couple weeks ago as we changed oil in my twins and the Speed Triple and that was something I found, he didn't fill the oil filter. You have to let take a little time to do it right. He just got the oil near the top then spun it on. I took the next filter and showed him how much air was left in by doing that. After starting the bike and then allowing the oil to settle it took almost another 3/4 quart to get it above the center of the site glass.

Because the engine oil pump is a positive displacement pump it will not vent the oil system, that has to be done by the crankcase ventilation system.

 

[nickjaxe]

If your T-100 is anything like my T-120, Bobber, or Thruxton R the filter is vertically mounted on the bottom of the engine and a lot of oil comes out when you pull the filter. Air locking is possible with any fluid system. It makes me wonder exactly what the handbook is saying. I know when I change oil on my twins I fill the oil filter before fitting it and then filling the engine. That said I actually spend the time to fill the filter, it takes about 5 minutes because it's dry paper and it takes awhile to get all the air out of the filter. My son-in-law gave me a hand a couple weeks ago as we changed oil in my twins and the Speed Triple and that was something I found, he didn't fill the oil filter. You have to let take a little time to do it right. He just got the oil near the top then spun it on. I took the next filter and showed him how much air was left in by doing that. After starting the bike and then allowing the oil to settle it took almost another 3/4 quart to get it above the center of the site glass.

Because the engine oil pump is a positive displacement pump it will not vent the oil system, that has to be done by the crankcase ventilation system.

Yes I alway fill the filter.....but first I have ever seen an instruction to fit filter after filling with oil.

On that logic filing the filer which all do maybe not recommended now....who knows.

Something odd about the lube sys on these water cooled motors.

There are many many owner around the world with this tapping/rattle on cold start.....who like me want an answer.....None of the dealer seem to have a clue.....the all give the same story.....more or less word for word.

 

[sikatri]

Yes I alway fill the filter.....but first I have ever seen an instruction to fit filter after filling with oil.

On that logic filing the filer which all do maybe not recommended now....who knows.

Something odd about the lube sys on these water cooled motors.

Water definitely is another component to worry about. Interesting instructions though.

 

[nickjaxe]

I don’t know about Triumph’s tensioners, but wouldn’t a bad tensioner keep making noise continuously and not stop after three minutes?

Maybe maybe not....they have internal o rings....could leak and not let pressure get up as it should....the ratchet spring could be Broken.....again take longer to pressurise.

All guess work on my behalf.

 

[atomsplitter]

From my Bobber manual's oil change procedure: (I bolded the last bullet)

• Remove the sump plug from the bottom of the sump and allow the oil to drain.
• Secure the motorcycle in an upright position on level ground.
• Position the oil drain pan beneath the oil filter.
• Unscrew and remove the oil filter using the Triumph service tool T3880313. Dispose of the old filterin an environmentally friendly way.
• Prefill the replacement oil filter with new engine oil.

Logically the lubrication system requires the oil pump to provide pressure. On startup the lube system pressure is zero and after startup the pressure rises rapidly since the oil pump is positive displacement (pump flow based on engine speed). The noise you hear on startup could be cavitation at the pump suction. With cold oil the resistance to flow is high and as the oil warms the resistance decreases (the basis of the multi-weight oil 10W-40 or 50). The 10W is better for cold starts than if the oil was straight 40W. The purpose of starting the engine and warming it to normal operating temps before draining is to lower the oil's resistance to flow for a more complete draindown. This cold oil flow resistance lowers the NPSH (net positive suction presssure) which could cause ingestion of air normally in the crankcase into the suction in the sump. Subsequent collapse of the voids at the pump discharge can be heard like grinding gravel or a knocking sound. It would be interesting to know the oil used for break-in of the motor, since the noise being discussed appears after the first oil change.

 

[nickjaxe]

From my Bobber manual's oil change procedure: (I bolded the last bullet)

• Remove the sump plug from the bottom of the sump and allow the oil to drain.
• Secure the motorcycle in an upright position on level ground.
• Position the oil drain pan beneath the oil filter.
• Unscrew and remove the oil filter using the Triumph service tool T3880313. Dispose of the old filterin an environmentally friendly way.
• Prefill the replacement oil filter with new engine oil.

Logically the lubrication system requires the oil pump to provide pressure. On startup the lube system pressure is zero and after startup the pressure rises rapidly since the oil pump is positive displacement (pump flow based on engine speed). The noise you hear on startup could be cavitation at the pump suction. With cold oil the resistance to flow is high and as the oil warms the resistance decreases (the basis of the multi-weight oil 10W-40 or 50). The 10W is better for cold starts than if the oil was straight 40W. The purpose of starting the engine and warming it to normal operating temps before draining is to lower the oil's resistance to flow for a more complete draindown. This cold oil flow resistance lowers the NPSH (net positive suction presssure) which could cause ingestion of air normally in the crankcase into the suction in the sump. Subsequent collapse of the voids at the pump discharge can be heard like grinding gravel or a knocking sound. It would be interesting to know the oil used for break-in of the motor, since the noise being discussed appears after the first oil change.

I was told by the Triumph sales man SAE30 running in oil.....but after speaking the the UK Factory after sale they say not.....it the standard every day oil.

Please note.....the noise appears after the first oil change and every cold start after that iol change.

Its all very odd.

 

[atomsplitter]

I was told by the Triumph sales man SAE30 running in oil.....but after speaking the the UK Factory after sale they say not.....it the standard every day oil.

Please note.....the noise appears after the first oil change and every cold start after that iol change.

Its all very odd.

If you contact the factory again, ask them if they do an initial fill and a vent of the lubrication system before first startup. That is, they cycle the oil pump slowly without running the engine with the ignition system on. Think of it as putting a variable speed drill chuck on the crankshaft and spinning it at 40 or 50 rpm. If that's the type of procedure it would ensure absolutely no air remains in the pump suction on initial fill. When you drain that oil out at the oil change interval, air enters the pump suction. There is no procedure to vent that air out in the manual, however every fluid system I have ever dealt with in 30 years of nuclear power plant operation requires venting of all air in any pump's suction to ensure a liquid solid intake to prevent air binding. That is regardless of whether the pump is centrifugal or positive displacement.

PDP's are unique pumps in that they flow based on speed. Every revolution of the gears in a gear oil pump discharges the same exact volume so if you spin the pump faster more volume discharges from the pump. There is no upper limit to the total flow, so most systems incorporate a relief valve to prevent over pressurization of piping and internal passages. If you watch the oil pressure guage in most cars it reaches and upper limit regardless of engine speed, that is due to the operation of the relief valve venting excess flow back to the sump. If you want to look it up, it's the Reynold's Number that's the limitation of a pipe's ability to flow an upper limit of a fluid. The total flow formula for a gear oil pump is:

• Fixed displacement pump: GPM = rpms x displacement / rpm

 

[nickjaxe]

If you contact the factory again, ask them if they do an initial fill and a vent of the lubrication system before first startup. That is, they cycle the oil pump slowly without running the engine with the ignition system on. Think of it as putting a variable speed drill chuck on the crankshaft and spinning it at 40 or 50 rpm. If that's the type of procedure it would ensure absolutely no air remains in the pump suction on initial fill. When you drain that oil out at the oil change interval, air enters the pump suction. There is no procedure to vent that air out in the manual, however every fluid system I have ever dealt with in 30 years of nuclear power plant operation requires venting of all air in any pump's suction to ensure a liquid solid intake to prevent air binding. That is regardless of whether the pump is centrifugal or positive displacement.

PDP's are unique pumps in that they flow based on speed. Every revolution of the gears in a gear oil pump discharges the same exact volume so if you spin the pump faster more volume discharges from the pump. There is no upper limit to the total flow, so most systems incorporate a relief valve to prevent over pressurization of piping and internal passages. If you watch the oil pressure guage in most cars it reaches and upper limit regardless of engine speed, that is due to the operation of the relief valve venting excess flow back to the sump. If you want to look it up, it's the Reynold's Number that's the limitation of a pipe's ability to flow an upper limit of a fluid. The total flow formula for a gear oil pump is:

• Fixed displacement pump: GPM = rpms x displacement / rpm
  Ok I can see you know you subject well.
  
  But if the were air in the system would it cause the tapping noise 100s of owners have.
  
  Its only there around 20 to 30 secs after cold start.
  
  Could it be causing damage.
  
  Its so wide spread Triumph must be aware....but they say not and after watching the video I shot at there request said it quite normal.
  

 

[atomsplitter]

Fortunately a gear oil pump can withstand a little air with no damage because the system is full of lubricant. If it were a water system or some other fluid (like sulphuric acid) then all bets are off. Triumph doesn't offer a solution because the engineers don't have a method of clearing the air from the system at the dealer level, that doesn't mean they can't put procedures in plaxce at the factory to fix it as the motors progress down the assembly line. The dealership's techs aren't performing factory assembly jobs, they are simply doing what the manual tells them to do, the engineers that wrote the book are providing the essential information, not the basis of every engineering decision.

All that to say if the enginerds are OK with it, then you can rest assured they won't fix it until enough problems crop up they are forced into fixing it. My 05 Rocket III had the headlight power (55 watts) routed thru the ignition barrel that caused desoldering of the connections due to the heat in the small wires. I put in an Eastern Beaver relay kit that bypassed that weak point to avoid the problem (learned from being on the R3 Forum), but a lot of owners had their bikes go dead and the resulting complaints and warranty repairs made the enginerds do a rethink. The factory finally corrected the problem with 2010 model year and beyond (six years after the Rocket first rolled off the assembly line).

 

[nickjaxe]

Fortunately a gear oil pump can withstand a little air with no damage because the system is full of lubricant. If it were a water system or some other fluid (like sulphuric acid) then all bets are off. Triumph doesn't offer a solution because the engineers don't have a method of clearing the air from the system at the dealer level, that doesn't mean they can't put procedures in plaxce at the factory to fix it as the motors progress down the assembly line. The dealership's techs aren't performing factory assembly jobs, they are simply doing what the manual tells them to do, the engineers that wrote the book are providing the essential information, not the basis of every engineering decision.

All that to say if the enginerds are OK with it, then you can rest assured they won't fix it until enough problems crop up they are forced into fixing it. My 05 Rocket III had the headlight power (55 watts) routed thru the ignition barrel that caused desoldering of the connections due to the heat in the small wires. I put in an Eastern Beaver relay kit that bypassed that weak point to avoid the problem (learned from being on the R3 Forum), but a lot of owners had their bikes go dead and the resulting complaints and warranty repairs made the enginerds do a rethink. The factory finally corrected the problem with 2010 model year and beyond (six years after the Rocket first rolled off the assembly line).

Ok all noted....have you any tips for making sure air is eliminated from the lube system.

Just to add....problem did not rear its head till after 1st oil change.....that seem to be the case with all effected owner I have been in contact with.

 

[atomsplitter]

Ok all noted....have you any tips for making sure air is eliminated from the lube system.

Not really, if there was a kickstarter available you could rotate the engine with the ignition off to rotate the oil pump slowly to get any trapped air moved to the discharge tube and out of the suction. Unless it causes a problem, you're between a rock and a hard place. I chalk it up to 'quirks of the design.'

 

[nickjaxe]

Not really, if there was a kickstarter available you could rotate the engine with the ignition off to rotate the oil pump slowly to get any trapped air moved to the discharge tube and out of the suction. Unless it causes a problem, you're between a rock and a hard place. I chalk it up to 'quirks of the design.'

I suppose I could pull the fuse for the fuel pump....and then crank the motor.

Am I right in thinking....just starting the engine will also clear air? or am I misunderstanding.

 

[atomsplitter]

It will but it takes a little bit. The real question is why after cooldown does it show up again, once the system is full it should remain full. I personally wouldn't bother with pulling the fuse or going to extremes when mechanically it isn't an issue. The only wear and tear is on your nervous system, not your bike's motor.

 

[nickjaxe]

It will but it takes a little bit. The real question is why after cooldown does it show up again, once the system is full it should remain full. I personally wouldn't bother with pulling the fuse or going to extremes when mechanically it isn't an issue. The only wear and tear is on your nervous system, not your bike's motor.

Yes all odd.....may no be anything to do with air either.

 

[atomsplitter]

Yes all odd.....may no be anything to do with air either.

Agreed, it's all conjecture on my part based on years of working with fluid systems of all sizes.

 

[sikatri]

As noted earlier, these type noises in engines in general can come from a variety of sources, lifters, fuel injectors, purge valves and other items. Not all of them are something to worry about. Possibly you never heard these until after the first oil change could be from the engine finally being broken in, or perhaps said like worn in. The main advice I have heard from numerous automotive sources is that if the ticking noise goes away in 10 minutes or so when the engine is warm then it’s likely not something to worry about. I would think the same applies to motorcycle engines as well. As @atomsplitter mentioned your nerves are likely more worn by this than the engine. Out of curiosity has anyone who noted this ticking noise prior to warm up ever had an engine disintegrate and was it determined to be related to the noise? Or did people just sell the motorcycle out of fear something might go wrong? You’ve had this motorcycle for awhile now and it sounds like you’re riding. This may sound a bit strange advice, but I would just keep an ear out for the tick and make mental notes when it disappears. If it’s gone after warm up continue riding and casually observing. When the ticking never goes away, it’s time to start looking for a failing part. I’m not dismissing your concern, just want you to consider it might be normal. It is normal in many engines. Ride and enjoy!

 

[nickjaxe]

As noted earlier, these type noises in engines in general can come from a variety of sources, lifters, fuel injectors, purge valves and other items. Not all of them are something to worry about. Possibly you never heard these until after the first oil change could be from the engine finally being broken in, or perhaps said like worn in. The main advice I have heard from numerous automotive sources is that if the ticking noise goes away in 10 minutes or so when the engine is warm then it’s likely not something to worry about. I would think the same applies to motorcycle engines as well. As @atomsplitter mentioned your nerves are likely more worn by this than the engine. Out of curiosity has anyone who noted this ticking noise prior to warm up ever had an engine disintegrate and was it determined to be related to the noise? Or did people just sell the motorcycle out of fear something might go wrong? You’ve had this motorcycle for awhile now and it sounds like you’re riding. This may sound a bit strange advice, but I would just keep an ear out for the tick and make mental notes when it disappears. If it’s gone after warm up continue riding and casually observing. When the ticking never goes away, it’s time to start looking for a failing part. I’m not dismissing your concern, just want you to consider it might be normal. It is normal in many engines. Ride and enjoy!

It may indeed be normal....I considered that from day 1.

But I have no way of knowing.....so it bothers me.....and lots of other owners who suffer the same thing.

Its the not knowing thats the worry.....if I did know.....I could then make my mind up its nothing to worry about.

Yes of course there are many things it maybe.

 

[sikatri]

It may indeed be normal....I considered that from day 1.

But I have no way of knowing.....so it bothers me.....and lots of other owners who suffer the same thing.

Its the not knowing thats the worry.....if I did know.....I could then make my mind up its nothing to worry about.

Yes of course there are many things it maybe.

So to help with the anxiety which I do understand. I asked a few questions, like how many engine failures has this particular engine and Triumph model had and how many were determined to be related to a ticking noise prior to warm up? If there’s no definitive numbers and cases or exceedingly relative to numbers produced and engine failure cannot be determined to be related to the ticking sound or is explained by other failure then you’re just going to stress more. I’m not saying you can’t take your whole motorcycle apart, but don’t be surprised if no matter what you do the noise always appears and disappears as it warms up. Some people stress and report these noises, but it’s likely a larger number know it’s exists and accepts it as an engine warming up and keep riding. You can spend your time thinking about the noise or thinking about your next ride and where you want to go. Good luck no matter what you choose to do, but I fear you’re creating an obsession for yourself. I’ve been down this road in 2008 and 2009 listening and discussing the noise our MINIs made prior to warm up. I still have my MINI and the engine still ticks and makes noises prior to warning up. I’ve replaced parts as needed and added about 50 HP and nothing has changed. So look at cases of failure and see if the numbers justify a lot of money in investigating this issue. If this is an issue there will be data to support it.