Black Gold - Texas Tea: Oil - Too Much!

[SarahP]

I'm showing my age, channeling the Beverly Hillbillies theme song.

Apparently I overfilled Barney's oil tank a few weeks ago when I topped it off. There's no line at all showing, although when I let him rest on the side stand, the oil drains out enough so that there's a line in the middle of the view port. (I followed the directions for running the engine, then letting it rest, standing it upright and checking.) I hope I haven't damaged anything.

(Don't get me started on how much I dislike that method of checking the Bonnie's oil level. Damned dangerous, awkward, and unseemly!)

I resisted the temptation to just ride again anyway, and rolled him back into the garage.

Can any of you experts give me a tip on how to remove a bit of oil? Have you had luck with threading a skinny tube into the oil filler area and using a suction bulb? Should I just bite the bullet and tweak open the oil drain bolt to let a little bit out?

I don't really want to do an entire oil change, although maybe I should just do it anyway. I didn't do it when I first got the bike 6 months ago; I don't know if the dealership did it when they bought it used. The bike has 2500 miles on it and the oil is still decently light brown, not nasty looking or dark.

Reading the Haynes service manual, page 1-11, it says to replace the sealing washer on the drain bolt when the oil is changed. Do I have to do this if I'm just letting a little oil out? I'm not planning on removing the bolt entirely, just cracking it open to let a bit of oil out.

Finally, where do I get the sealing washer? Does it come with the purchase of an oil filter or is it a generic type washer?

Thanks, guys. I hated not riding Barney today. It's going to rain (again!) tomorrow.

 

[triumph david]

SarahP, don't worry to much about that washer, you can get one at the hardware store if you want one but you may be able to use the original one for a very long time, just keep a eye on it. A turkey baster and a rubber hose will work to remove some oil, you can also get a suction gizmo at the auto parts store that is made to remove liquid ect. If you don't know about the true mi. on the oil it might be a good idea to change it anyway, for what it does oil is cheap.

 

[harper6t]

I would try an oil syringe, I have seen these at the motorcycle accessory places here, you could probably find it on on the web. Unless you can syringe the oil out you will have to drain the oil as its unlikely that just cracking the drain bolt will allow any oil out, you have to remove the bolt completely and then its unlikely that you will get it back in while its draining without getting oil everywhere. I almost never replace the sealing washers on oil drains. You should be able to get one of the same size at most auto supermarkets if you need it. Without knowing exactly what they used, its going to be either aluminium or copper or a combined aluminium and rubber.

 

[Baldeagle]

To be honest,I have found it really difficult to "just undo the plug and let a little out"
It I have found tends to come out at quite a rate and really difficult to gauge how much is coming out.I have found in hardware stores here for a couple of €'s a cheap Chinese plastic pump and have been successful in getting oil into my trike where the filler is well hidden.
Todd luck and don't worry too much,we have all done it!!

 

[SarahP]

To be honest,I have found it really difficult to "just undo the plug and let a little out"
It I have found tends to come out at quite a rate and really difficult to gauge how much is coming out.I have found in hardware stores here for a couple of €'s a cheap Chinese plastic pump and have been successful in getting oil into my trike where the filler is well hidden.
Todd luck and don't worry too much,we have all done it!!

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Thanks, BaldEagle, I've decided to try and start with just removing some via a siphon hose. I had a feeling that trying to back off the plug just a wee bit would probably result in the loss of all the oil, LOL. If that happens, I want to have everything at hand to just do a complete oil & filter change.

So --- first step right now is to just take a little off the top. Thanks for the advice!

 

[SarahP]

I would try an oil syringe, I have seen these at the motorcycle accessory places here, you could probably find it on on the web. Unless you can syringe the oil out you will have to drain the oil as its unlikely that just cracking the drain bolt will allow any oil out, you have to remove the bolt completely and then its unlikely that you will get it back in while its draining without getting oil everywhere. I almost never replace the sealing washers on oil drains. You should be able to get one of the same size at most auto supermarkets if you need it. Without knowing exactly what they used, its going to be either aluminium or copper or a combined aluminium and rubber.

*************************************************************
That's it! An oil syringe! That's exactly what I had in mind -- doh, never knew there was such a thing. Thank you!

About the washer - I wonder why the repair manual makes such a big deal out of replacing it. I guess it's the more conservative way, but everyone's experience here indicates that it's ok to reuse it. I'll have some on hand when I do the oil/filter change, just to be on the safe side. But if it looks intact, I'll just slap that puppy back on.

Thanks!

 

[Baldeagle]

I think it's an American joke about always replacing the crush washer!!!
I have used the same one over and over on Goldwings with no problem,obviously if it is crushed!! Change it haha.
Sorry forgot to add,if this is your first time doing oil and filter changes it may be worth scrounging a torque wrench from a friend,we don't want you stripping any threads etc,not trying to scare you and I guess you know this anyway but just in case.

 

[SarahP]

BaldEagle said: I think it's an American joke about always replacing the crush washer!!!
I have used the same one over and over on Goldwings with no problem,obviously if it is crushed!! Change it haha.
Sorry forgot to add,if this is your first time doing oil and filter changes it may be worth scrounging a torque wrench from a friend,we don't want you stripping any threads etc,not trying to scare you and I guess you know this anyway but just in case.
*******************************************************************
Oooh, BE, you read my mind. I was just getting ready to post yet another question, this one about torque wrenches.

The manual says the oil filter is to be torqued to 10Nm (the oil drain bolt is 25Nm); my handy conversion chart says that 10Nm is equivalent to approx. 8 ft-lbs. Looking online for a torque wrench that goes that low -- any suggestions on a brand that everyone likes? TIA

I found this one online -- it's digital but goes down low enough for the oil filter 10NM rating. What does the hive mind think about digital wrenches?

And please, don't assume that I know anything about wrenching! This is all new to me, and I appreciate everyone's advice. The forum members have been really helpful to this newbie.

 

[Rocky]

Like TD, I've done the turkey baster method before and it worked - albeit fairly slow.
I've also cracked open the drain plug and let it drip until the oil level came down - albeit fairly slow too.
But you have to be careful and not back the plug out too far or you will have a flood as harper said.
The oil syringe is a good tool to do the job. Weigh the cost against how many times you will use it.
I agree that the sight glass method of checking the oil level is a PITA!! Three of my bikes have the sight glass
As far as the washer goes, I've used the same one many times without any leaks so don't stress about that.
You can easily get one at an auto parts store or from wherever you buy the oil filter.

 

[Baldeagle]

I have to say I have never used a digital one,I have an old faithful Norbar brand mechanical one that I bought in London when I was an apprenticed motor mechanic.
I can assure you it has given me many faithful years of service so see no reason to change.
Should you buy a mechanical one they have a spring that tightens as you ask for more torque,try to remember to release the pressure on the spring by returning the dial to zero after use as it will weaken if not done.I mean don't worry,we all forget occasionally that won't matter just try and turn it down after use.
As another aside I use a chain filter remover,NEVER use it to tighten the new filter.I always put oil on the seal just with my finger,half fill the filter and turn on hand tight,if you feel it needs a bit more just tweak it up a bit but make sure not to over tighten.
I am old school but also like to know the oil is well distributed before the engine bursts into life.Accordingly I usually let the starter turn once or twice with the kill switch so the engine won't fire.
Sorry if this all sounds a little to much and maybe not necessarily the case with modern engines but I firmly believe look after your bike and it will look after you.Good luck.

 

[SarahP]

Like TD, I've done the turkey baster method before and it worked - albeit fairly slow.
I've also cracked open the drain plug and let it drip until the oil level came down - albeit fairly slow too.
But you have to be careful and not back the plug out too far or you will have a flood as harper said.
The oil syringe is a good tool to do the job. Weigh the cost against how many times you will use it.
I agree that the sight glass method of checking the oil level is a PITA!! Three of my bikes have the sight glass
As far as the washer goes, I've used the same one many times without any leaks so don't stress about that.
You can easily get one at an auto parts store or from wherever you buy the oil filter.

***********************************************************
Patience seems to be the name of the game. Being in a hurry is what got me in this mess in the first place. I added too much oil because I was rushing to go for a ride. I've learned my lesson.

The oil syringes I was looking at are pretty inexpensive, so I'll check them out today when I go into town.

About the washer -- how did you know what size to buy? 14mm inner diameter, 12mm OD...? I know I can take the original with me when I (literally) pull the plug during the oil change in the future. But I've looked online and in the manual and can't find any specs on it. I think an OEM Triumph oil filter comes with the washer.

If the original looks OK, I'll reuse it. But I'd like to have a replacement just in case. There's nothing worse than being in the middle of a project and having to stop and go to the store for something. Grrrrr

 

[SarahP]

I have to say I have never used a digital one,I have an old faithful Norbar brand mechanical one that I bought in London when I was an apprenticed motor mechanic.
I can assure you it has given me many faithful years of service so see no reason to change.
Should you buy a mechanical one they have a spring that tightens as you ask for more torque,try to remember to release the pressure on the spring by returning the dial to zero after use as it will weaken if not done.I mean don't worry,we all forget occasionally that won't matter just try and turn it down after use.
As another aside I use a chain filter remover,NEVER use it to tighten the new filter.I always put oil on the seal just with my finger,half fill the filter and turn on hand tight,if you feel it needs a bit more just tweak it up a bit but make sure not to over tighten.
I am old school but also like to know the oil is well distributed before the engine bursts into life.Accordingly I usually let the starter turn once or twice with the kill switch so the engine won't fire.
Sorry if this all sounds a little to much and maybe not necessarily the case with modern engines but I firmly believe look after your bike and it will look after you.Good luck.

*************************************************
BaldEagle,
Good point about turning the torque wrench back to zero. I'll try and remember that!

Interesting about the starter/kill switch: my Bonnie won't turn anything with the kill switch engaged. The headlamp comes on, but that's it. The idea of any engine parts running without oil, even for a second, is scary. I have to ASS-U-ME the Triumph engineers knew what they were doing and hope that I don't screw it up. LOL Thanks for the advice!

 

[SarahP]

Just to add a bit of levity to this morning's discussion - I was looking at beam wrenches and found this in another forum as a precision tool. I'm sold!

 

[Rocky]

I have an oil filter and washer I bought at the Triumph dealer. The washer was extra, but other dealers may include them.
The inside diameter is 14mm and that's what Barney will probably take also. I would get one that size. Should it be the wrong size you won't be out much $$.
The next time you change oil measure the old washer to be sure - but then it might be a bit distorted from use and be out by a mm or so.

Good advice from baldeagle about returning a torque wrench to zero after use. I have two wrenches (inch pounds and foot pounds) of the break/click type and always return them to zero after use and then store them in their original cases in a tool chest drawer so they don't get knocked around, dropped or abused.

I don't use a torque wrench on the oil drain plug - not that it isn't a good idea.
I guess I've been doing this long enough that my "educated elbow" knows how tight is tight enough
Too many people overdo it and can strip threads.
The purpose of the crush washer is to "crush" and form a seal so the plug doesn't have to be excessively tight. So far so good, and I've never had a problem

 

[SarahP]

OK, gents, belly up to the bar for Round 2...

There's not an oil syringe to be found in Northern Virginia, LOL. So I bought 18 inches (46cm) of thin, 3/32" ID fuel line and a veterinary syringe. The fuel line fit tightly on the syringe and had no problem drawing water.

I trotted out to Barney, stood him upright (cold engine), and fed the line all the way in. I pulled back on the syringe plunger and....nothing. Nada. No oil, no vacuum, bone dry.

The end of the fuel line showed very little oil on it - just 'accidental' oil as though the line had scraped the side of the tank. It certainly wasn't dripping oil as though it had been submerged...in a tank...that was overfull. How the heck long does this line have to be?!

As always, thanks for any guidance!

 

[SarahP]

I trotted out to Barney, stood him upright (cold engine), and fed the line all the way in. I pulled back on the syringe plunger and....nothing. Nada. No oil, no vacuum, bone dry.

Whoa, have I made a basic mistake? I found this on Dan's Motorcycle Shop website

"Dry sump engines are a bit different from wet sump engines. On Dry Sump engines you will need to start and run the engine for five minutes or so BEFORE you check the oil level, if the engine has been sitting for any length of time. Even if you have just changed the oil, you will need to run the engine. This is because the oil tanks are all above the engine's oil pump. The oil is gravity feed to the pump. The oil will back feed through the pump gears and into the sump. The longer the engine sits, the more oil seeps back into the sump. You have to run the engine so the scavenging oil pump will pump all the excess oil out of the crankcase and into the oil tank. Once the crankcase is empty of oil and the oil tank full of oil, you can get an accurate oil level reading."

This sounds applicable to my situation - all the oil in cold Barney is at the very bottom of the sump and has to be circulated from the sump *UP* and into the oil tank by running him for 5 minutes (as the users manual says to do).

So - if the oil is already high, it's not going to hurt the bike *too* much to just be at idle power for 5 minutes, will it? No blown gaskets or valves at low RPMs?

Thanks --

 

[Baldeagle]

Haha,well done something we all missed when talking about pumps,syringes etc.
You know what,I would be inclined to just change the oil and filter,let the bloody lot out!!
It will be good experience and you will know you put the right amount in.Crikey you live in oil land haha.
Good luck whatever you choose to do,don't forget to note date changed and mileage.
Ticking over for 5 minutes should be fine if you choose that route.

 

[SarahP]

@Baldeagle:
I would be inclined to just change the oil and filter,let the bloody lot out!!

I might end up doing that, but now it's personal. I must prove my dominance over the siphon!

 

[SarahP]

DOMINANCE: ESTABLISHED.

Now here's my contribution to the Forum members' feeling superior and smart as whips. When you read exactly *how much* overfill there was, you'll shake your (collective) heads and chuckle, while thinking "Whoa, I would NEVER do that!"

Well, that's OK, my shoulders are broad enough to carry the shame of what I did.

I overfilled poor Barney by 40 ounces - 5 cups - 1.2L.

Triumph Motorcycles LTD and the US Motorcycle Safety Foundation have asked me to relinquish my moto endorsement and give up riding....

Alright, alright, enough with the mea culpas! Here's what transpired.

At first I tried like hell to get the drain plug off. The crash bars are a massive PITA, but worse, I discovered the drain plug was installed/tightened by Hercules himself. I couldn't budge it at all. Heaven only knows what the filter is going to be like.

I toyed with the idea of just tipping Barney over in the grass with the oil filler plug off and letting the oil run out onto a tarp. (I read that on another moto website.) However, it just seemed so...inelegant. Although me in knee pads, torn jeans, and a grease-stained shirt wasn't exactly haute couture.

So I went back to the siphon method. After some trial and error on length and angle of the dangle, I finally started to get some oil in my 60 ml veterinary syringe. Let me tell you, it was a right royal be-yotch to pull the plunger back on the syringe and pull that oil up and out. Oddly enough, oil doesn't siphon as easily as water, LOL. It took me all morning to siphon out the overfill at 2 ounces/60 ml a pop.

I finally got the level at almost a tad low, IMHO. I decided to leave the oil alone (not add any more just yet), go for an hour-long ride, and check the level again later.

When I got back from my ride, I let the bike stand for about 10 minutes, then looked at the view port. It seemed to be still too full! NOOOOO! I'm going to chalk that up to being very hot still, and check it in the morning after it's cooled overnight.

What really bothered me was how on earth it had gotten so incredibly overfull. I *know* I checked it after I topped it off last week, and I would NEVER have ridden it had I known it was too full. I'm fully aware of the importance of oil, and that too much is really bad, as well.

I finally decided, after checking the sight port a million times today, that unless the bike is absolutely level, that gauge can and will be off by a massive amount. The slightest lean angle to the left will have you thinking it's fine, when in reality it's not. I'm thinking that I didn't have the bike truly level when I checked it last week.

First thing on my to-do list tomorrow is to buy a basic wheel chock to stand the bike up while checking the oil. I came close to dropping Barney once while I was doing the siphoning/checking today. Scary, because it would have fallen on me!

So, to all who offered advice, support, and guidance, thank you very much! I've learned my lesson - add the oil slowwwwly and put a level on the bike when checking the view port!

 

[triumph david]

Don't feel bad we have all done the same thing.