At Wits End!

Triumph Motorcycle Forum - TriumphTalk

Help Support Triumph Motorcycle Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Geezer

Member
On my 79 T140 I have an issue that I just can't seem to resolve. The engine will not rev over 4000-4200 RPM's. I've tried everything that I can think of. First of all, I have Amal 930's and they're clean and not worn out. I've played with the jetting, currently I have a .107 needle jet and a 230 main. Both plugs read lean, the left leaner than the right. I tried the Mikuni setup from MAP cycle. No change, won't rev. I've used different air filters, velocity stacks, makes no difference. It has a blue box Boyer ignition and the mini coils that go with the blue box Boyer. I've checked ground (neg earth). I"ve added a second ground wire. I've gone over every inch, no air leaks that can be found. The bike pulls like a beast........ until it hits 4000 RPM's and then it stumbles and breaks up. At this point my thought is the Boyer and or coil is faulty? Any and all suggestions welcomed!
 
Well it seems you have done just about everything that I would have suggested. So I will leave this one for someone more in tune with the classic bikes.
Thanks Dave. This tells me that I probably have not overlooked something! It really is a head scratcher!!!
 
RHS can read not so lean. Gets potentially more oil, as fed from that side.

Boyer, I had one. It's crap that they only work with their expensive own-,brand coils. For the cost of the coil you can buy the (in my opinion) excellent Wassel e.i. and use a £10 dual coil.

My Boyer stopped advancing. Or rather, it got stuck in full advance.

Me, I'd splash the cash, get a Wassel. Worst case scenario, you have a new ignition system and a functioning spare set. Best case scenario, your Boyer is cooked, and you've saved weeks more agony.
 
My Boyer stopped advancing. Or rather, it got stuck in full advance.
Not strictly true. All e.i. are/should be set physically at full advance, 68 onwards using the marks on alternator rotor and primary cover, the electronics retard the spark between idle and full advance rpm.

79 T140
engine will not rev over 4000-4200 RPM's
blue box Boyer ignition and the mini coils
Boyer and or coil is faulty?
Your bike's system has two coils or one?

While @solomon could be right about the Boyer being "cooked", there are a number of things I would check/do before condemning it.

As you are in the US, Bransden Electronics (the actual maker of all "Boyer" e.i.) has authorised Coventry Spares to test and repair/replace as required, although you have to send the Transistor Box, coil(s), (Boyer) stator and rotor to them.

I wonder if it is just coincidence that the rpm where it "stumbles and breaks up" is also about full advance rpm:-

. Is the bike fitted with one of either resistor spark plugs, resistor plug caps, resistive HT leads? If plugs or leads, have you used an Ohmmeter or multimeter to check for 5,000 Ohm resistance, no more, no less?

. Have you checked the physical (full advance) setting; i.e. the pistons are just BTDC, an alternator rotor line is lined up with the fixed line behind the primary chaincase plug (assuming standard '79 parts)?

. Have you checked with a strobe that the ignition is retarded between tickover and "stumble" rpm? Standard '79 primary cover, regrettably it is not easy to see the ignition advancing (rotor line moving closer to the chaincase line) with increasing rpm because the chaincase timing aperture is so small; :( nevertheless, you should at least be able to see the lines apart at rpm a little below 4000.

checked ground (neg earth)
In what way? "Neg earth" means the harness Black wires connected to battery -ve are the supply to electrical components. The original Lucas Rita e.i. had a Black wire supplying it; if you can also identify this particular wire at the battery -ve terminal, the Boyer Transistor Box White should be connected to it. Or your "second ground wire" should be the only one connecting battery -ve to the Transistor Box White wire.

Be aware all aftermarket e.i. fitting instructions (including Boyer's) are entirely unsuitable for any 79 onwards twin, following them slavishly results in wholly unnecessary mutilation of perfectly suitable standard wiring to fit poorer quality but more expensive e.i. than the original Rita :( In addition to possibly using the original Black wire from battery -ve to connect the Transistor Box White wire:-

. harness White/Black wire to connect the Transistor Box Black wire to (first?) coil -ve (do not confuse with the Black/White wire at the Transistor Box and Boyer Stator);

. if two separate coils, harness White/Pink wires between first coil +ve and second coil -ve;

. harness White/Yellow wire to connect the Transistor Box Red wire and (second) coil +ve to handlebar kill switch?

Irrespective of the above, have you tried temporarily connecting the Transistor Box Red wire and (second) coil +ve directly to the battery +ve terminal? This will eliminate the kill switch, ignition switch and standard fuse contacts as possible causes of the stumble/break up. If you try this, put a fuse in the wire between coil +ve and battery +ve and make the wire long enough so you can poke the fuse out from under the seat, because kill switch and ignition switch bypassed, the fuse will be the only way of stopping the engine once it is started.

Have the harness White/Purple and White/Orange wires been used to connect the Black/White and Black/Yellow wires at Transistor Box and Boyer Stator? If yes:-

. Are the Black/White and Black/Yellow wires connected to the same White/Purple or White/Orange wire at both ends? This is important as 'swapping' the connections between Stator and Transistor Box confuses the signals to the Box timing electronics.

. The White/Purple and White/Orange wires have 'break' connections near the frame steering head; find these, pull them apart, make sure there is no corrosion on the bullets or snap connector internal steel sleeves. Any doubt about them remake the connections with "Japanese bullets", sockets and their insulators, if necessary from Cycle Terminal (the Japanese bullet components make much more weatherproof connections; (y) if you use the smaller "3.5 mm" terminals, they are also a good replacement for the red insulated hardware store terminals all the e.i. makers fit to the Stator wires).
 
Not strictly true. All e.i. are/should be set physically at full advance, 68 onwards using the marks on alternator rotor and primary cover, the electronics retard the spark between idle and full advance rpm
It did indeed 'get stuck ' at full advance. Not physically, electronically obviously.
So I had the opposite problem. Was a sow to start, nasty kickbacks.
Could be the coil anyway in this case, I mean. As Boyer don't accommodate standard coils, just replaced the lot.
 
FIRST THING I would check is to ensure that the enricher ("choke") slides are not staying partially lowered into the air stream of the carb venturi. Like if the choke is on or partially on. When you draw the cables tight, the little slides need to be totally up inside the air slides at full throttle. Take off the air cleaners, twist the throttle full open, and have a look...
 
FIRST THING I would check is to ensure that the enricher ("choke") slides are not staying partially lowered into the air stream of the carb venturi. Like if the choke is on or partially on. When you draw the cables tight, the little slides need to be totally up inside the air slides at full throttle. Take off the air cleaners, twist the throttle full open, and have a look...
I've taken the choke slides out completely.
 
Not strictly true. All e.i. are/should be set physically at full advance, 68 onwards using the marks on alternator rotor and primary cover, the electronics retard the spark between idle and full advance rpm.


Your bike's system has two coils or one?

While @solomon could be right about the Boyer being "cooked", there are a number of things I would check/do before condemning it.

As you are in the US, Bransden Electronics (the actual maker of all "Boyer" e.i.) has authorised Coventry Spares to test and repair/replace as required, although you have to send the Transistor Box, coil(s), (Boyer) stator and rotor to them.

I wonder if it is just coincidence that the rpm where it "stumbles and breaks up" is also about full advance rpm:-

. Is the bike fitted with one of either resistor spark plugs, resistor plug caps, resistive HT leads? If plugs or leads, have you used an Ohmmeter or multimeter to check for 5,000 Ohm resistance, no more, no less?

. Have you checked the physical (full advance) setting; i.e. the pistons are just BTDC, an alternator rotor line is lined up with the fixed line behind the primary chaincase plug (assuming standard '79 parts)?

. Have you checked with a strobe that the ignition is retarded between tickover and "stumble" rpm? Standard '79 primary cover, regrettably it is not easy to see the ignition advancing (rotor line moving closer to the chaincase line) with increasing rpm because the chaincase timing aperture is so small; :( nevertheless, you should at least be able to see the lines apart at rpm a little below 4000.


In what way? "Neg earth" means the harness Black wires connected to battery -ve are the supply to electrical components. The original Lucas Rita e.i. had a Black wire supplying it; if you can also identify this particular wire at the battery -ve terminal, the Boyer Transistor Box White should be connected to it. Or your "second ground wire" should be the only one connecting battery -ve to the Transistor Box White wire.

Be aware all aftermarket e.i. fitting instructions (including Boyer's) are entirely unsuitable for any 79 onwards twin, following them slavishly results in wholly unnecessary mutilation of perfectly suitable standard wiring to fit poorer quality but more expensive e.i. than the original Rita :( In addition to possibly using the original Black wire from battery -ve to connect the Transistor Box White wire:-

. harness White/Black wire to connect the Transistor Box Black wire to (first?) coil -ve (do not confuse with the Black/White wire at the Transistor Box and Boyer Stator);

. if two separate coils, harness White/Pink wires between first coil +ve and second coil -ve;

. harness White/Yellow wire to connect the Transistor Box Red wire and (second) coil +ve to handlebar kill switch?

Irrespective of the above, have you tried temporarily connecting the Transistor Box Red wire and (second) coil +ve directly to the battery +ve terminal? This will eliminate the kill switch, ignition switch and standard fuse contacts as possible causes of the stumble/break up. If you try this, put a fuse in the wire between coil +ve and battery +ve and make the wire long enough so you can poke the fuse out from under the seat, because kill switch and ignition switch bypassed, the fuse will be the only way of stopping the engine once it is started.

Have the harness White/Purple and White/Orange wires been used to connect the Black/White and Black/Yellow wires at Transistor Box and Boyer Stator? If yes:-

. Are the Black/White and Black/Yellow wires connected to the same White/Purple or White/Orange wire at both ends? This is important as 'swapping' the connections between Stator and Transistor Box confuses the signals to the Box timing electronics.

. The White/Purple and White/Orange wires have 'break' connections near the frame steering head; find these, pull them apart, make sure there is no corrosion on the bullets or snap connector internal steel sleeves. Any doubt about them remake the connections with "Japanese bullets", sockets and their insulators, if necessary from Cycle Terminal (the Japanese bullet components make much more weatherproof connections; (y) if you use the smaller "3.5 mm" terminals, they are also a good replacement for the red insulated hardware store terminals all the e.i. makers fit to the Stator wires).
The bike has a single Boyer coil, on it is a label that says to use it with the blue box Boyer.
It has resistor caps, I've checked that already.
As for ground, I ran a separate additional wire from the engine to the frame to be sure the engine was grounded properly. I have not done anything with the Boyer wiring.
I have not checked for physical full advance on the primary side. As for setting the timing with a strobe, I don't have any of the necessary tools to check that. There is a Triumph person near me, he was going to be my next call if I can't get this figured out.
Thanks for all the trouble shooting tips, I'll be checking things before I call my guy.
 
Just reaching here, but could the retaining strap be causing any RF interference at the higher RPM’s. Long shot, I know. When I bought the bike, this coil came with other bits. Any idea what it’s from?
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0995.jpeg
    IMG_0995.jpeg
    122.7 KB · Views: 8
  • IMG_0994.jpeg
    IMG_0994.jpeg
    208.5 KB · Views: 15
  • IMG_0993.jpeg
    IMG_0993.jpeg
    198.8 KB · Views: 27
I have not checked for physical full advance on the primary side. As for setting the timing with a strobe, I don't have any of the necessary tools to check that
My experience of Boyer was it wasn't very precise setting up physically. A fair bit of tweaking was done when strobing.

A strobe gun is not very much, think I paid under £20 for mine. Very easy to use. You would also best get the TDC tool that fits into the crankcase, also not much.

There must be videos on the internet explaining a Triumph 750 strobing. There's a line on the alternator that must align with a pin in the timing window on full advance (will have happened by 5000 rpm).
 
could the retaining strap be causing any RF interference at the higher RPM’
Can only say I've not experienced RF interference on an e.i. even with non-resistor spark plugs/caps (so no interference suppression).

Was bike running okay, then not? Or like this since you got it? If like this always, checking timing would be part of the elimination process, to find the fault. In fact, would be anyway, it's possible the Boyer rotor has slightly slipped.
 
Can only say I've not experienced RF interference on an e.i. even with non-resistor spark plugs/caps (so no interference suppression).

Was bike running okay, then not? Or like this since you got it? If like this always, checking timing would be part of the elimination process, to find the fault. In fact, would be anyway, it's possible the Boyer rotor has slightly slipped.
It's been like this since I got it. I did check the rotor today to see if it had come loose, and it's TIGHT!! Is there a key way or something that holds it in the correct place, or is it just a tight taper fit? Not having any Boyer install instructions, where would I set the rotor if there's no key way?
 
It's been like this since I got it. I did check the rotor today to see if it had come loose, and it's TIGHT!! Is there a key way or something that holds it in the correct place, or is it just a tight taper fit? Not having any Boyer install instructions, where would I set the rotor if there's no key way?
It's a taper fit. Might be tight, doesn't mean it's not fractionally moved.

Boyer instructions are on the internet.

If you got a strobe gun, sure people will help if you post. Honestly, it's surprisingly easy.
 
Just to add, ideally you would have the TDC tool when aligning the Boyer rotor.
I used to use an Allen key, which worked okay, but not so accurate. I got the tool now. It drops into a hole in the crank at BTDC, screws into the crankcase behind cylinders.
 
has resistor caps, I've checked that already.
You have checked each is 5,000 Ohms between HT lead screw and spark plug contact? You have checked the HT leads essentially do not have any resistance?

single Boyer coil
ground, I ran a separate additional wire from the engine to the frame to be sure the engine was grounded properly.
No offence intended but a complete waste of time:-

. The supply to the ignition circuit is the Transistor Box White wire connected to the battery -ve terminal as shown in your View attachment 55026, (y)

. The return (ultimately to the battery +ve terminal) from the Transistor Box itself is its Red wire. That and the coil +ve should be connected to the handlebar kill switch as standard, the harness White/Yellow wire (the kill switch is connected to ignition switch terminal #2 by a White wire, the ignition switch connects terminal #2 to terminal #1, terminal #1 has (should have) the Brown/Blue wire to the battery +ve terminal).

. Single coil, the HT circuit is from one end of the HT windings along the connected HT lead to the plug cap, across the cap to the plug, across the plug to the cylinder head, across the cylinder head to the second plug, across the second plug to its connected cap, across the cap to the connected HT lead, along the HT lead back to the other end of the coil's HT windings.

. Note no mention of the frame ... :cool:

I have not checked for physical full advance on the primary side. As for setting the timing with a strobe, I don't have any of the necessary tools
I did not suggest setting the timing, I suggested checking it. No tools necessary except a large coin to remove the timing plug in the primary chaincase (the plug's slots were specifically designed not to need a more complicated "tool") and a strobe. Again no offence intended but, if you cannot afford at least your own cheap strobe from Harbor Freight or similar, you are going to struggle looking after this bike.

could the retaining strap be causing any RF interference
No. Sparks cause interference, not random bits of metal.

Triumph 750 strobing. There's a line on the alternator that must align with a pin in the timing window on full advance
Not on the "79 T140" @Geezer posted in his post that started this thread. I have already posted the fixed mark he will find on the primary chaincase when he removes the timing plug.

check the rotor today to see if it had come loose, and it's TIGHT!! Is there a key way or something that holds it in the correct place, or is it just a tight taper fit?
It's a taper fit.
Once again ... not as standard on the "79 T140" @Geezer posted in his post that started this thread ... As standard, there is a small round raised part at the bottom of the exhaust camshaft taper; ideally whoever fitted the Boyer relieved the bottom of the Boyer Rotor taper to fit over the small round raised part at the bottom of the exhaust camshaft taper ... but @Geezer will not know unless he removes the Boyer Rotor ... that is not necessary at this time.

Not having any Boyer install instructions
http://www.boyerbransden.com/pdf/KIT00281.pdf
 
Thank you all, you've given me places to look. By looking at the Boyer schematic it shows the white from the box going to the frame as a ground. Mine goes to the negative post on the battery. I'm assuming that makes no difference? Looks like I'll be ordering the timing tool and checking out Harbor Freight tomorrow.
 
Boyer schematic it shows the white from the box going to the frame as a ground. Mine goes to the negative post on the battery. I'm assuming that makes no difference?
On the contrary, it can make a considerable difference; if you re-read my previous posts, I have posted the Transistor Box White wire should be connected to the battery -ve terminal; this is based on both first hand experience and advice from an electronics engineer involved in Lucas Rita e.i. sales and service years before Triumph adopted it for original equipment fitting.

79 T140
Amal 930's
ground (neg earth)
:Worthless:

How sure are you the bike is "79"? Certainly it is not standard either for 79 or for earlier years - while 79 or later would have negative earth electrics, it would also have Amal Mark 2 Concentric carbs, rubber mounted on parallel inlet ports into the cylinder head, the enricheners cannot be removed from these or the engine will not run properly ... I have described standard 79 wire colours in previous posts but View attachment 55026 appears to show non-standard wiring; how extensive is the non-standard wiring?

Otoh, earlier years do have "Mark 1" Concentrics, these have sprung "tickler" buttons for enrichment for starting, choke slides that can be removed, that otherwise fit within the throttle slides, but they are flange mounted on inlet ports splayed from each other and from the centreline of the bike. And the electrics are positive earth.
 
On the contrary, it can make a considerable difference; if you re-read my previous posts, I have posted the Transistor Box White wire should be connected to the battery -ve terminal; this is based on both first hand experience and advice from an electronics engineer involved in Lucas Rita e.i. sales and service years before Triumph adopted it for original equipment fitting.


:Worthless:

How sure are you the bike is "79"? Certainly it is not standard either for 79 or for earlier years - while 79 or later would have negative earth electrics, it would also have Amal Mark 2 Concentric carbs, rubber mounted on parallel inlet ports into the cylinder head, the enricheners cannot be removed from these or the engine will not run properly ... I have described standard 79 wire colours in previous posts but View attachment 55026 appears to show non-standard wiring; how extensive is the non-standard wiring?

Otoh, earlier years do have "Mark 1" Concentrics, these have sprung "tickler" buttons for enrichment for starting, choke slides that can be removed, that otherwise fit within the throttle slides, but they are flange mounted on inlet ports splayed from each other and from the centreline of the bike. And the electrics are positive earth.
So, it is a 79, and it’s a bit of a Frankin-bike. Amal 930’s are on it now, it has a splayed intake head and someone had welded push on exhaust spigots, unless they came standard on a 79. The bike is most definitely negative earth. Totally redone wiring, custom bits through out. All in all a very clean bike, lots of attention to detail. And yes, I realize that this can cause it’s own bit of issues, changing things from stock.
My only British experience has been with my 1972 Trident, which has a Boyer, but it’s simply a marvelous machine. No issues at all.
 
Back
Top