anyone well versed in EFI tuning?

[dazco]

I have a question and other forums have a lot of knowledgeable people, but don't have people like here that actually care and try and help if they can ! So even tho they have the numbers, i know if anyone here DOES have an answer for me i'll get it without some agenda. So here goes. I took a map that is custom made for a bike exactly like mine, same pipes, filter, cat removed, everything. But i wanted to add more air by removing a part that restricts air and then add some fuel. I added 3% fuel to the cells that are enriched over the WITH cat tune. Bike runs like it's never run before. But what i want to know is, lets say you open the airway so it gets 15 or 20% less restriction. How much fuel would you add to adjust for that approximately. Now before you tell me it's more involved than that, i do understand that and how it would be different for different ranges etc etc etc. . But i just wanted a guesstimate. Does 3% sound like very little? Also, in the 3 maps i used, one being the tors tune, one being a custom dyno'd tune for the bike WITH cat intact, and one a decat tune, (last 2 made by same tuner/dyno) All 3 have progressively more fuel in all the same cells, and they all have the exact same cells untouched too with all the same fueling. But all those tunes are for stock airways except for the aftermarket filter. Now that i let in more air, should i up the fuel in those cells that are the same in all 3 maps? I fear i will run too lean at cruise where those unchanged cells are now that more air is coming in. And if so, what would you guess as far as a percentage?

I know this is probably hard to follow, but if you followed any other it and have any answers at all i'd like to hear what you have to say. I'm flying blind for the most part.

 

[devo]

Dale, I am only taking a bit of a stab here, but isnt a air fuel ratio of 14.7 to one about perfect.
So I.m thinking if you increase the airflow by x amount, would you not increase the fuel amount by x/14.7.
If I'm talking rubbish,feel free to tell me to eff off.

 

[dazco]

But theres no way to know what the ratio is w/o dyno'ing it. All i can do in tuneECU is up the % of fuel at any given throttle position/rpm AFAIK.

 

[devo]

But theres no way to know what the ratio is w/o dyno'ing it. All i can do in tuneECU is up the % of fuel at any given throttle position/rpm AFAIK.

Well, there is another angle of attack I'm thinking Dale, If you can fit an A/F guage,this will tell you at any time what your fuel ratios are and you can tune your map to suit.Check out this thread of Steves and see if it is of any help.
https://www.triumphtalk.com/showthread.php/2210-A-F-Sensor-and-guage

If you were to fit a gauge (even as a temporary measure ) close to your tacho, and then set up the likes of a gopro cam,you could record a couple of runs and see exactly where and how much to tune your map.

 

[dazco]

I have thought about that, but my mechanic (triumph's fleet manager, so he knows this stuff) told me the stock bungs aren't the right size so i'd need new bungs welded on. I just want to get this tune reasonably close. itr may already be, as it runs great. But i wanna be sure theres no excessive lean condition anywhere.

 

[DaveM]

Well I would start off with a 1% increase ride it for a week and then check the plugs out and see how they are burning. With something like this you are taking a dip at it each time until you hit the right spot. Over the years I have always relied on the plugs as the indicator on how my bike is running.

Signs of fouling or excessive heat must be traced quickly to prevent further deterioration of performance and possible engine damage.

[TD="width: 166, align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Normal Condition
An engine's condition can be judged by the appearance of the spark plug's firing end. If the firing end of a spark plug is brown or light gray, the condition can be judged to be good and the spark plug is functioning optimally.
[/TD]

[TD="align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Dry and Wet Fouling
Although there are many different cases, if the insulation resistance between the center electrode and the shell is over 10 ohms, the engine can be started normally. If the insulation resistance drops to 0 ohms, the firing end is fouled by either wet or dry carbon.
[/TD]

[TD="align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Overheating
When a spark plug overheats, deposits that have accumulated on the insulator tip melt and give the insulator tip a glazed or glossy appearance.
[/TD]

[TD="align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Deposits
The accumulation of deposits on the firing end is influenced by oil leakage, fuel quality and the engine's operating duration.
[/TD]

[TD="align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Lead Fouling
Lead fouling usually appears as yellowish brown deposits on the insulator nose. This can not be detected by a resitsance tester at room temperature. Lead compounds combine at different temperatures. Those formed at 370-470°C (700-790°F) having the greatest influence on lead resistance.
[/TD]

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[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Breakage
Breakage is usually caused by thermal expansion and thermal shock due to sudden heating or cooling.
[/TD]

 

[DaveM]

More ....

[TD="align: left"][/TD]

[TD="align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Normal Life
A worn spark plug not only wastes fuel but also strains the whole ignition system because the expanded gap (due to erosion) requires higher voltages. Normal rates of gap growth are as follows:
Four Stroke Engines: 0.01~0.02 mm/1,000 km (0.00063~0.000126 inches/1,000 miles)
Two Stroke Engines: 0.02~0.04 mm/1,000 km (0.000126~0.00252 inches/1,000 miles)[/TD]

[TD="align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Abnormal Erosion
Abnormal electrode erosion is caused by the effects of corrosion, oxidation and reaction with lead - all resulting in abnormal gap growth.[/TD]

[TD="align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Melting
Melting is caused by overheating. Mostly, the electrode surface is rather lustrous and uneven. The melting point of nickel alloy is 1,200~1,300°C (2,200~2,400°F).[/TD]

[TD="align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Erosion, Corrosion and Oxidation
The material of the electrodes has oxidized, and when the oxidation is heavy it will be green on the surface. The surface of the electrodes are also fretted and rough.[/TD]

[TD="align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Lead Erosion
Lead erosion is caused by lead compounds in the gasoline which react chemically with the material of the electrodes (nickel alloy) as high temperatures; crystal of nickel alloy fall off because of the lead compounds permeating and seperating the grain boundary of the nickel alloy. Typical lead erosion causes the surface of the ground electrode to become thinner, and the tip of the electrode looks as if it has been chipped.[/TD]

 

[dazco]

Thanks Dave, but checking the plugs on this thing isn't an option. It takes at least an hour to get to them from start to finish! And considering it'd have to do it a number of times thats not gonna happen.

 

[DaveM]

Then the other way is to put it on a dyno and check what it is doing from there but that can cost as I know

 

[dazco]

I can't. You need a power commander or tuneboy for that, and if i had one of those I'd wouldn't be asking because i'd be using whatever tune i had made with them. In other words, the only reason i'm using this tune in the 1st place is that i don't have one of those and can't therefore have a tune made. And the only tuner i know of anywhere near me that dyno's bikes with tuneecu is about 800 miles away. Besides, i'm not really desperite to sort this out because it runs great and while my only concern is lean-ness, i ran it with the seat ducts off before for months w/o burning the valves or anything destructive. So it's probably ok as is, but i WOULD like to be somewhat sure it's not lean at all.

 

[DaveM]

I think unfortunately you back to pulling those plugs to see what it is doing

 

[devo]

I have thought about that, but my mechanic (triumph's fleet manager, so he knows this stuff) told me the stock bungs aren't the right size so i'd need new bungs welded on. I just want to get this tune reasonably close. itr may already be, as it runs great. But i wanna be sure theres no excessive lean condition anywhere.

Dale,being as fussy as you are (a good thing ) about the condition of your bike and the state of tune,I dont think having the correct bungs welded in would be a major for you.
I do know a few years back when I was playing with turbo cars an air fuel guage was the better way to dial in the safc.
As you said,its really nice knowing you have that mix right.Remember,if you run it a bit leaner the power will go up,but its as bad for the life of your engine as running too rich.

 

[dazco]

I was always under the impression too rich (within reason of course) wasn't harmful, just bad for performance or fouling plugs.

 

[devo]

If you go too rich the excess fuel will wash the oil layer of the top ring and bore leading to excessive wear

 

[dazco]

Thats good to know. If that were the case tho, wouldn't the bike seem rich by spewing a very obvious rich odor?
My thinking was this....i ran the bike with that airduct off and the bike seemed the same. I noticed little or no difference. Then i enrichened it 3% and the bike just came to life with a lot more power. So my thinking was that 3% is not a lot, and since it ran so strong with that small amount it probably wouldn't be too rich because it's obviously using it. One of the tuneECU guys in think it was told me to start with 5-10%. So i figured 3% would likely not bee too rich, especially if it made the bike run better meaning it DID need it.

Now that logic is logic coming from a non tuner/mechanic, yours truly. So i may be in error by missing something i don't know about being a novice. But the map i'm using was made with a bike exactly like mine in every way and by a very reputable tuner on a state of the art dyno. So i think that map is likely fueled quite perfectly and 3% more with more air going in seems like it wouldn't likely be too rich. The scenario you described i would think is not likely unless it's considerably richer than it needs to be. Also, when jetting carb'd bikes one way to know if you go too rich is when performance doesn't improve or falls off. That certainly wasn't the case here. But again, i'm a numbskull.

 

[CarlS]

A little too rich is better for the engine than a little too lean. Both overly rich and overly lean are detrimental to the engine.

 

[dazco]

Would too rich be able to be determined by having oil analysis done?

 

[CarlS]

Would too rich be able to be determined by having oil analysis done?

I don't know the answer to that. The best method I know is an exhaust gas analyzer.

 

[DaveM]

I don't know the answer to that. The best method I know is an exhaust gas analyzer.

Yeah but it sound like there is not one close enough to get that done.

 

[devo]

I've always found the absence of a need for choke on cold start a pretty good clue for overly rich.