T140v 1976 missing electrical system

[Migsan]

Hi
I am working on a t140v from 1976. I bought it as an uncompleted project. The only electric parts that I have at the moment are the original 12 V coils, a 5 wire stator and rotor that is different from the specs in the replacement parts. Meanwhile I bought a new harness for the correct year. I was planing to fit it with electronic ignition and powerbox. I do understand that these two last components replace a great deal of the original hardware on the bike.
I was hopping that someone could help telling me what do I need to buy in terms of electric parts to get the bike back on the road. Also, can I use the stator/rotor that I have?
the original one is the 47205 single phase.

Many thanks,
Miguel

 

[Rudie]

t140v from 1976
can I use the stator/rotor that I have?

Not the 5 wire stator. While your one was made in early 1967 ("7 67" is Week 7 in 1967), they were fitted between 1962 and 1967 to versions of twins with the "Energy Transfer" AC ignition system; these were usually the off-road 'Competition' versions - T100C, TR6C, T120C and T120TT.

The rotor could be usable, "16 73" means it was made in Week 16 of 1973.

original one is the 47205 single phase.

I wouldn't bother with it. New stators cost about the same irrespective of their power output, which makes the high-output 3-phase (47244) the best value. As you're planning to fit a Boyer-Branden(?) Powerbox, simply buy the 3-phase one.

As you're in the UK, TMS in Nottingham is the retailer with the lowest-priced stators I know of - TMS's 750 twins' electrical webpage. If you scroll down the "Code" column to 47244, you'll see there are two entries, the second suffixed "/UK". I recommend this one, although it's a little more expensive; the one without the suffix is made by Wassell, who have always had a rather cavalier attitude to quality control ...

If you scroll further down the "Code" column, to 54335169/UK, that's a "MADE IN UK", not-Wassell version of the ignition switch.

original 12 V coils,
I was planing to fit it with electronic ignition

Use 6V coils; ime, 12V coils with e.i. on a twin are more trouble than they're worth.

Some e.i. makers' (Boyer-Bransden?) fitting instructions will say you can use 12V coils; however, if you have an ignition problem and e-mail Bransden (the actual maker of all "Boyer-Bransden" parts) tech. help, one of the first questions they'll ask is whether the bike has 6V or 12V coils; if you tell 'em 12V, one (the first?) response will be to advise fitting 6V coils ...

I bought a new harness for the correct year.

I sincerely hope not a Wassell "Genuine Lucas" one.

 

[Migsan]

Thank you for replying Rudie

So I will get the 3 phase stator you mentioned with the 3 phase boyer power box. For the electronic ignition I was gonna get the Boyer Bransden kit 00052 which is 12 volts would that be ok with the 6 V coils?
Does the powerbox and electronic ignition replace the rectifier, the condenser and the flasher unit?

If you scroll further down the "Code" column, to 54335169/UK, that's a "MADE IN UK", not-Wassell version of the ignition switch.

I have the original ignition switch as well I hope it´s usable!

I sincerely hope not a Wassell "Genuine Lucas" one.

I got the Lucas braided one not NOS though.

Cheers

Miguel

 

[grandpaul]

Dual 6v coils will be wired in SERIES with a 12v Boyer setup.

 

[Migsan]

Dual 6v coils will be wired in SERIES with a 12v Boyer setup.

Hi Grandpaul

Should I just get the regular Lucas 6 V coils or the smaller new ones?

Cheers
Miguel

 

[Migsan]

I mean the dual boyer 6 V coils?

 

[Migsan]

Either one is fine, just confirm the proper impedance (ohm) rating that the Boyer ignition box needs.

Thanks I will check it out!

 

[Migsan]

I wouldn't bother with it. New stators cost about the same irrespective of their power output, which makes the high-output 3-phase (47244) the best value. As you're planning to fit a Boyer-Branden(?) Powerbox, simply buy the 3-phase one.

Cant really use the 3 phase stator on a harness intended for the one phase stator right? one has 3 leads the other two. I would have to change the harness or is there a way to bypass it?

 

[Rudie]

will get the 3 phase stator you mentioned with the 3 phase boyer power box.

The three stator wires connect directly one each to the three Powerbox Yellow wires. No need to use the White/Green and Green/Yellow wires in the harness.

electronic ignition I was gonna get the Boyer Bransden kit 00052 which is 12 volts would that be ok with the 6 V coils?

Yes. As @grandpaul posted, the coils are connected in series to the Boyer-Bransden "Transistor Box". If you want to understand better, KIT00052's fitting instructions and wiring diagram are online on Boyer-Bransden's website here.

Should I just get the regular Lucas 6 V coils or the smaller new ones?

Either one is fine,

NO!

The smaller "Boyer" coils are specifically intended for the Boyer-Bransden MicroPower e.i., which works completely differently from MicroMarkIV ("Boyer Bransden kit 00052"). Those smaller coils have very low internal resistance ("impedance"); if they're used with a Mk.4 (or MicroDigital), the Transistor Box will be toast instantly it's powered-up. Bransden would supply a new Box, for another £100 ...

If you're buying direct from Bransden, just tell whoever you speak to you want two 6V coils for the KIT00052 you're ordering.

Does the powerbox and electronic ignition replace the rectifier, the condenser and the flasher unit?

The Powerbox replaces the rectifier and the Zener diode. The electronic ignition replaces points and auto-advance unit; then, because the points are gone, the condensers aren't required.

Neither Powerbox nor e.i. replace the flasher unit.

I got the Lucas braided one not NOS though.

Good luck getting it to fit ...

Original '76 harnesses had PVC-insulated wires and were wrapped in plastic harness tape. The "Lucas" that made your bike's original harness had stopped wrapping harnesses in braid years before your bike was built.

Exact copies of your bike's original harness are made by Autosparks and retailed by TMS, or another maker and retailed by L.P. Williams.

Otoh, "Genuine Lucas" is a marketing scam that's been running for about six years between Wassell and the company that took over the original Lucas company in about 1979. Wassell has licensed exclusive use of the "Lucas" branding and packaging, which Wassell uses to give its usually poor-quality parts a veneer of respectability.

Turning back to KIT00052, when you come to fit it, I advise against following some of Bransden's connection instructions - my advice is based on fixing many of them for other owners at various roadsides and campsites across Europe, and a Mk.3 fitted to one of my Triumphs for about 20 years:-

. I connect the Transistor Box Red wire directly to the battery +ve terminal (extending the wire if necessary). Any electrical circuit is between the two battery terminals, the Box White wire is connected to battery -ve through insulated wires and connectors so I've never understood the logic of connecting the Box Red wire to battery +ve with the frame and various uninsulated and corroded or well-painted bits of bike (none of the latter conduct electricity) ...

. The wire from the +ve terminal of the coil labelled "HT1" in the fitting instructions "FIG.1" and "HT2" in the fitting instructions "FIG.3", I connect either also directly to the battery +ve terminal or at least into the harness Red wires, for the same reasons as the previous paragraph.

. I check for a Red harness wire connected to an engine component (I make and fit if absent) and then use a meter to check for good continuity between engine and battery +ve.

. I fit a 7.5A automotive blade fuse and holder in the Transistor Box White wire - if it's accessible, I use the connection between the Box White wire and (on a bike like yours) the White/Yellow wire from the handlebar kill switch.

 

[Migsan]

The three stator wires connect directly one each to the three Powerbox Yellow wires. No need to use the White/Green and Green/Yellow wires in the harness.


Yes. As @grandpaul posted, the coils are connected in series to the Boyer-Bransden "Transistor Box". If you want to understand better, KIT00052's fitting instructions and wiring diagram are online on Boyer-Bransden's website here.



NO!

The smaller "Boyer" coils are specifically intended for the Boyer-Bransden MicroPower e.i., which works completely differently from MicroMarkIV ("Boyer Bransden kit 00052"). Those smaller coils have very low internal resistance ("impedance"); if they're used with a Mk.4 (or MicroDigital), the Transistor Box will be toast instantly it's powered-up. Bransden would supply a new Box, for another £100 ...

If you're buying direct from Bransden, just tell whoever you speak to you want two 6V coils for the KIT00052 you're ordering.


The Powerbox replaces the rectifier and the Zener diode. The electronic ignition replaces points and auto-advance unit; then, because the points are gone, the condensers aren't required.

Neither Powerbox nor e.i. replace the flasher unit.


Good luck getting it to fit ...

Original '76 harnesses had PVC-insulated wires and were wrapped in plastic harness tape. The "Lucas" that made your bike's original harness had stopped wrapping harnesses in braid years before your bike was built.

Exact copies of your bike's original harness are made by Autosparks and retailed by TMS, or another maker and retailed by L.P. Williams.

Otoh, "Genuine Lucas" is a marketing scam that's been running for about six years between Wassell and the company that took over the original Lucas company in about 1979. Wassell has licensed exclusive use of the "Lucas" branding and packaging, which Wassell uses to give its usually poor-quality parts a veneer of respectability.

Turning back to KIT00052, when you come to fit it, I advise against following some of Bransden's connection instructions - my advice is based on fixing many of them for other owners at various roadsides and campsites across Europe, and a Mk.3 fitted to one of my Triumphs for about 20 years:-

. I connect the Transistor Box Red wire directly to the battery +ve terminal (extending the wire if necessary). Any electrical circuit is between the two battery terminals, the Box White wire is connected to battery -ve through insulated wires and connectors so I've never understood the logic of connecting the Box Red wire to battery +ve with the frame and various uninsulated and corroded or well-painted bits of bike (none of the latter conduct electricity) ...

. The wire from the +ve terminal of the coil labelled "HT1" in the fitting instructions "FIG.1" and "HT2" in the fitting instructions "FIG.3", I connect either also directly to the battery +ve terminal or at least into the harness Red wires, for the same reasons as the previous paragraph.

. I check for a Red harness wire connected to an engine component (I make and fit if absent) and then use a meter to check for good continuity between engine and battery +ve.

. I fit a 7.5A automotive blade fuse and holder in the Transistor Box White wire - if it's accessible, I use the connection between the Box White wire and (on a bike like yours) the White/Yellow wire from the handlebar kill switch.

Thanks Rudie
That´s a lot of valuable information.
I checked with boyer and they recommended 6V Lucas replica for the 52 KIT.
I laid the harness the harness on the bike with the grommets and in terms of length seems spot on but of course it´s early to tell.

I will make my order today from several places but overall I got:

stator 3 phase 47244
Boyer MKIV 00052 kit
Boyer powerbox 3 phase 105
two Lucas type coil 6V 47275
I will also order the complete flasher unit plus fuses and connectors. I have an old harness to salvage as well. Can the fuse be the round type or you recommend the blade one?

Many thanks
Miguel

 

[grandpaul]

(grandpaul said:
Either one is fine,)

NO!

Those smaller coils have very low internal resistance ("impedance"); if they're used with a Mk.4 (or MicroDigital), the Transistor Box will be toast instantly it's powered-up. Bransden would supply a new Box, for another £100 ...

Actually, YES!

Your very next statement agrees with me...

My ACTUAL quote, in it's entirety: Either one is fine, just confirm the proper impedance (ohm) rating that the Boyer ignition box needs.

 

[Rudie]

Don't be silly. Either one is not "fine".

The OP's first post says he has a 1976 T140. The OP's second post says, "For the electronic ignition I was gonna get the Boyer Bransden kit 00052"; you know as well as I do that's a Mk.4.

You and I both know you've installed numerous Boyer e.i. Even if you've never installed a MicroPower, you know any other Boyer e.i. needs a total coil impedance no less than 3 Ohms, because any other Boyer e.i. fitting instructions have always said so. Otoh, the "smaller" coils, for a MicroPower, have an impedance of about 0.5 Ohm each.

Apart from the "smaller" coils would wreck a Mk.4, they would drop straight through standard oif coil mounting holes. Where has the OP posted his bike doesn't have the standard coil mounting? More to the point, where have you asked about the coil mounting before posting, "Either one is fine"?

 

[Migsan]

Don't be silly. Either one is not "fine".

The OP's first post says he has a 1976 T140. The OP's second post says, "For the electronic ignition I was gonna get the Boyer Bransden kit 00052"; you know as well as I do that's a Mk.4.

You and I both know you've installed numerous Boyer e.i. Even if you've never installed a MicroPower, you know any other Boyer e.i. needs a total coil impedance no less than 3 Ohms, because any other Boyer e.i. fitting instructions have always said so. Otoh, the "smaller" coils, for a MicroPower, have an impedance of about 0.5 Ohm each.

Apart from the "smaller" coils would wreck a Mk.4, they would drop straight through standard oif coil mounting holes. Where has the OP posted his bike doesn't have the standard coil mounting? More to the point, where have you asked about the coil mounting before posting, "Either one is fine"?

I have the standard coil mounting. Just spoke with Boyer Bransden again due to the fact that I found diferent types of Lucas 6 V coils. One was adverted has having 2.5 Ohms and the other less than 4. Both looked exactly the same. On the phone they mentioned it should have between 1.8 to 2.5Ohms and also to get the PVL made in Germany they sell on TMS Nottingham.

 

[Rudie]

overall I got:

stator 3 phase 47244
Boyer MKIV 00052 kit
Boyer powerbox 3 phase 105
two Lucas type coil 6V 47275

I will make my order today from several places

Be careful where you buy "Lucas" coils especially. Branded are Wassell "Genuine Lucas" and ime variable-to-poor quality, I always make the same checks I would on used 6V coils:-

. 1.5-2.2 Ohms between the LT terminals;

. ~5000 Ohms between the HT terminal and each LT terminal;

. very-high-to-infinite (some meters display the infinity symbol) Ohms between any terminal and case.

Have you priced TMS for the stator and PVL coils? Fwiw, my Triumph with Boyer Mk.3 e.i. has always had PVL coils.

Or coils from Bransden with Powerbox and e.i.? At least you shouldn't get dud coils from them?

flasher unit

The standard flasher unit was a Lucas 8FL. However, for incandescent-bulb flashers, I found the 9FL was more robust - Lucas used to supply contemporary British car and van makers with the 9FL to work 'hazard flashers' but I found it equally happy just working two flashers on a bike. 9FL is just deeper than an 8FL, they're the same dimensions around the terminals and at the other end so the 9FL will fit in the same original mounting bracket.

fuse
round type or you recommend the blade one?

Given a choice, I always use blade fuses.

Whether blade or 'original' cylindrical type, fuses are cheaply made. However, there are fewer and fewer users of the cylindrical type and, so they don't end up being a fortune to end users like you and me, they're having to be made more and more cheaply, so more and more manufacturing corners are being cut.

The other advantage to the more common blade fuses is, if you're out and the bike develops an intermittent fault that pops fuses and uses up all the spares you're carrying, it's much easier to find someone selling blade fuses than cylindrical.

If you use blade fuses, they're rated by 'continuous' Amps, not cylindrical 'blow' Amps; 'continuous' Amps are half 'blow' Amps but there isn't a 17.5A 'continuous' (half 35A 'blow'); fwiw, I haven't had any problem using 15A blade fuses, even on electric-start bikes.

connectors.

If you haven't found them already, I mainly use Vehicle Wiring Products and Autosparks.

 

[Rudie]

Be careful where you buy "Lucas" coils especially. Branded are Wassell "Genuine Lucas" and ime variable-to-poor quality,

Have you priced TMS for the stator and PVL coils? Fwiw, my Triumph with Boyer Mk.3 e.i. has always had PVL coils.

Or coils from Bransden with Powerbox and e.i.? At least you shouldn't get dud coils from them?

You beat me to it.

 

[Migsan]

You beat me to it.

Thanks Rudie
I will gladly spent some extra money to prevent issues down the road. I will get the uk version stator and the PVL coils.
Because my bike didn't had any turn signals when I got it so I was thinking about putting these hidden small LED turning lights instead of the original Lucas. They are very small size and barely noticeable. They run on 12 V, would I be able to use them with the regular flashers mentioned before or it wouldn't work?

https://www.louis.eu/artikel/mo-blaze-pin-turn-signal/10034297
Cheers
Miguel

 

[Rudie]

turn signals
Buy mo.blaze pin Turn Signal | Louis motorcycle clothing and technology
They run on 12 V, would I be able to use them with the regular flashers mentioned before or it wouldn't work?

Not on their own. While 12V is important, it isn't the only criterion for flashers and turn signals; any flasher also works with a certain electrical resistance (Ohms) in the connected turn signals:-

. E.g. Lucas 8FL and 9FL were designed to work with incandescent turn signal bulbs - standard 12V 21W-23W incandescent turn signal bulbs have a resistance of about 6-7 Ohms.

. Otoh, LED's much lower power consumption - e.g. the LED you linked use 3W - is achieved with a much higher resistance; e.g. the linked ones are 48 Ohms.

. LED turn signals can be used with a flasher intended for incandescent bulbs, but each turn signal has to have at least one resistor in parallel, 'til the cumulative resistance of LED and extra resistors reduces to similar to the resistance of incandescent bulbs. However, the cumulative current draw (Amps) of LED and extra resistors then rises to similar to the current draw of bulbs (3.5A).

. Ime, much simpler and better to use a flasher intended for the higher resistance of LED turn signals.

One thing to be absolutely certain about with any metal-bodied LED (especially at the price of the linked turn signals ) is they don't 'earth' through the metal body. Reason is your bike's standard electrics are 'positive earth' (i.e. all the bike's uninsulated metal bits are connected to battery +ve) while especially Motogadget's stuff is particularly 'negative earth'. At best, they simply just don't 'work'; however, the first time you connect the battery, you hardly want smoke and/or odd noises from turn signals costing as much as the linked ones?

Once you're absolutely certain they don't 'earth' through the body, you'd connect certainly each linked turn signal's Black wire to the loom's Green/White (right flashers) or Green/Red (left flashers) wires, and each turn signal's Red wire to the bike's existing Red wires.

Similarly, also be careful with any LED flasher:-

. it also mustn't 'earth' through its body/mounting;

. if it comes with two wires/connections, its -ve wire/connection must be to your bike's White wires and its +ve wire/connection must be to your bike's Light Green/Brown wire to the handlebar switch;

.. if it comes with three wires/connections, first ascertain the switch wire/connection is +ve (if it's -ve, you can't use the relay with your bike's 'positive earth' electrics); of the relay's other two wires, one will be -ve (connect to your bike's White wires) and the other will be +ve (connect to your bike's Red wires).

Buy mo.blaze pin Turn Signal | Louis motorcycle clothing and technology

Nice ... but that's a price for a flasher ... Still, with Motogadget's LED flasher relay at least you shouldn't have too much trouble spending enough for the free delivery (at that price, I'd be looking forward to at least personal delivery by the prettier sister of the fraulein on the Contacts page ) ...

I'm more Man @ M&P ...

 

[Migsan]

Not on their own. While 12V is important, it isn't the only criterion for flashers and turn signals; any flasher also works with a certain electrical resistance (Ohms) in the connected turn signals:-

. E.g. Lucas 8FL and 9FL were designed to work with incandescent turn signal bulbs - standard 12V 21W-23W incandescent turn signal bulbs have a resistance of about 6-7 Ohms.

. Otoh, LED's much lower power consumption - e.g. the LED you linked use 3W - is achieved with a much higher resistance; e.g. the linked ones are 48 Ohms.

. LED turn signals can be used with a flasher intended for incandescent bulbs, but each turn signal has to have at least one resistor in parallel, 'til the cumulative resistance of LED and extra resistors reduces to similar to the resistance of incandescent bulbs. However, the cumulative current draw (Amps) of LED and extra resistors then rises to similar to the current draw of bulbs (3.5A).

. Ime, much simpler and better to use a flasher intended for the higher resistance of LED turn signals.

One thing to be absolutely certain about with any metal-bodied LED (especially at the price of the linked turn signals ) is they don't 'earth' through the metal body. Reason is your bike's standard electrics are 'positive earth' (i.e. all the bike's uninsulated metal bits are connected to battery +ve) while especially Motogadget's stuff is particularly 'negative earth'. At best, they simply just don't 'work'; however, the first time you connect the battery, you hardly want smoke and/or odd noises from turn signals costing as much as the linked ones?

Once you're absolutely certain they don't 'earth' through the body, you'd connect certainly each linked turn signal's Black wire to the loom's Green/White (right flashers) or Green/Red (left flashers) wires, and each turn signal's Red wire to the bike's existing Red wires.

Similarly, also be careful with any LED flasher:-

. it also mustn't 'earth' through its body/mounting;

. if it comes with two wires/connections, its -ve wire/connection must be to your bike's White wires and its +ve wire/connection must be to your bike's Light Green/Brown wire to the handlebar switch;

.. if it comes with three wires/connections, first ascertain the switch wire/connection is +ve (if it's -ve, you can't use the relay with your bike's 'positive earth' electrics); of the relay's other two wires, one will be -ve (connect to your bike's White wires) and the other will be +ve (connect to your bike's Red wires).


Nice ... but that's a price for a flasher ... Still, with Motogadget's LED flasher relay at least you shouldn't have too much trouble spending enough for the free delivery (at that price, I'd be looking forward to at least personal delivery by the prettier sister of the fraulein on the Contacts page ) ...

I'm more Man @ M&P ...

Yes they are really expensive but they are really small and I don't believe they would affect the esthetics. I guess it's a thin line to start making unholy modifications to these classic bikes. Maybe it´s not the best option then. Any suggestions on alternatives to the stock signs?
Check them out on this Paul Smart Ducati I saw at the bike shed!

 

[grandpaul]

Yes they are really expensive but they are really small and I don't believe they would affect the esthetics. I guess it's a thin line to start making unholy modifications to these classic bikes. Maybe it´s not the best option then. Any suggestions on alternatives to the stock signs?
Check them out on this Paul Smart Ducati I saw at the bike shed!

It can be done by using a modern flasher intended for LEDs, and carefully wiring with polarity isolation (no direct-to-ground / bare metal connections anywhere in the circuit, but run dedicated ground wires). It's your bike, you can do as you desire, but it means more work.

 

[Rudie]

I don't believe they would affect the esthetics. I guess it's a thin line to start making unholy modifications to these classic bikes.

No criticism intended. It's your money and your bike, spend the former how you want to make the latter look.

Fwiw, the M&P turn signals I've used; when I bought them, they were also available with dark and clear lenses (like these from the same supplier) and chromed and plain polished ally bodies.