Some Progress In Finding More Engine Performance

[RHB]

RHB we are pretty much in agreement. Replacing the stock air filter with a K&N made no real repeatable difference. The frame tubes are so close to the two throttle body's there is no room to mount individual K&N filters unless they make ones with offset boots. There is a replacement air intake made in Australia but I have seen no test data to support the claims made.

K&N won't give you any advantage over stock, DNA will give a slight advantage and more if you modify the intake (remove stock intake snorkel and fabricate a new intake cover, not so easy on triumphs) MWR is one of the best high performance filters but not sure they make one for Triumphs. Free Spirits in Italy has a rather ugly solution to intake on a Thruxton, but it's there for evaluating. Personally I wouldn't put that on a street bike, very ungainly.
Aircleaner High Flow kit for Triumph Thruxton 1200, Bonneville T120 & Bobber (Water Repellent)

 

[RHB]

what I did on my MT07 intake. DNA plus a self designed stage 2 cover from composite materials. good for a measurable repeatable gain on dyno, albeit small. DNA has a lot more surface area and better flow than a K&N, but the trick is the cover design to allow more air. was getting about 74 HP to the rear wheel, stock was 68 at the crank. included ECU flash, decat exhaust and FTECU Active tune. plus a few other tricks.

 

[dynajohn]

Nice work RHB. The free spirit filter solution looks to be the same setup I found on an Australian site. Not my first choice either. Before making any air box changes I want to do more testing on the dyno. I want to quantify where the restrictions are. I am going to install taps in the air box before the filter and after the filter as well as taking a measurement after the throttle body's. I will be able to use a manometer to measure the pressure difference from atmosphere to the air box area ahead of the filter (with & without the top of the snorkel removed), the pressure drop across the filter, the pressure drop across the throttle body's (remember they are limited to 85% open above 7000 RPM, and below 7000 RPM when they are 100% open) as well as the total pressure drop of the intake system from the intake port to atmosphere. While we are still working to persuade Don Guhl to take a look at the Triumph ECU I would like to see exactly where the intake restrictions are before making any further changes. I have a lot of dyno data and pictures I will post concerning the result of installing the Arrow pipes. I just have to get it organized and onto my new laptop before posting.

 

[dynajohn]

I received an answer from Motone in GB yesterday. They say they do not offer any internal engine parts and have no plans to. The responder for Motone said they are not working with anyone in Germany or any other country to supply or develop camshafts. They are working on a exhaust (slip on mufflers or a complete system????) they did not say.

 

[RHB]

maybe I wasn't clear, I talked to Motone about dyno charts for their X pipe, they just said they had dyno results for their x pipe from a German company who had also installed racing cams, as well as the x pipe, indicating their are companies working on cams for the WC twins. Motone never indicated they were developing cams.

 

[dynajohn]

Thanks for you're help RHB. As for cams I think we have a good start on what works and a source here in the US. We have made some progress on the ECU re-flash front as well, as Don Guhl is going to look at it. My bet is that he will be able to crack the software. We are going to take a methodical approach to the intake track to find out if there is a restriction and if there is where it is.

 

[RHB]

Thanks for you're help RHB. As for cams I think we have a good start on what works and a source here in the US. We have made some progress on the ECU re-flash front as well, as Don Guhl is going to look at it. My bet is that he will be able to crack the software. We are going to take a methodical approach to the intake track to find out if there is a restriction and if there is where it is.

Your welcome, but not sure I was any help. The guys on the FZ07/MT07 forum are a rather technical bunch, and we have collectively done some interesting research and a lot of dyno testing, something that seems to be lacking on any of the Triumph forums as I can see. As far as intake gains, I would not invest in a lot of time, as the Returns are minimal in the larger picture. The secret is in the proper reflashing and exhaust mods dynoed with as much free air coming in as possible, in that order of importance. Of course serious internal modifications such as new cams, adds a whole other set of parameters, (and potential gains) something I am not knowledgeable about, or interested in doing personally.
There is an analysis process called CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) which allows a computer to accurately simulate heat transfer, flow, and other things. A guy on the FZ07 forum ran a series of tests with every possible air filter and airbox mod and the differences were real but small. Granted it was a comparison of a static flow situation not dynamic but it made clear the differences between various set ups, and while interesting, if I remember the differences on air flow were within a % point of 1 HP, 2 max. sometimes measurable on a dyno sometimes not. The only big jump was with what was called a Hord box, (Hord power) basically ripping out the airbox and constructing a new system with large pod filter, he is in fact gaining 4-6 HP on an FZ07 Apparently there is little room on the Triumphs for this kind of set up. But your the man to find out
If Don Guhl can crack the locked ECU he will be the first of many who have looked at it, I would be surprised if he can., But delighted if he could.

 

[RHB]

Well, it seems that progress continues on several fronts. I know this thread is about the 1200 WCTs, but I have a Street twin and it seems up until this week there has not been much work done on the Street twin.
The gains you have gotten are in line with what can probably be expected on the 1200cc short of a re flash which is to date not possible. What is interesting is the 15% closing of the Throttle bodies might not be a restriction in itself but an ECU (Kehien) built in design, to buffer the rev limiter or ease the jolt as you approach the limiter. Flashing the ECU is the only way to eliminate that and remove the limiter if that is your goal.
TEC performance in the UK has apparently cracked the performance limit on the 900cc WCTs and has built a cam used only with a stock ECU, x pipe and Vance and Hines Fuel map to produce 70 HP at the rear wheel. Amazing gains on what he describes is a moderate cam grind. His reasoning is that the 900cc and 1200cc are not significantly different in potential power. In this mind, Triumph has seen fit to make the difference more profound by severely limiting the 900cc engines with a restrictive cam, one throttle body and smaller valves. plus a few other obvious things like sleeving the cylinders, tune etc. He reckons when he develops a cam eventually for the 1200cc engines the gains will not be that great, but around 15-18% increase. Check out his you tube intro;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRk6x_u3mBI

 

[RHB]

Here is the link to the German site that I previously mentioned cand couldn't find:
Hi guys,
I read that many people here are searching for a bit more Power for their Thruxton 1200 Bike and I think we are the only company who offers tuning Camshafts at the moment. We produce our Tuning Camshafts for the Thruxton (produced in highest quality in germany!).
We have some different Kits for the Thruxton to get much more Power out of the Bike! In stage 4 (the highest Stage at the moment) we reach +14hp! From low revolutions up to high ones the power rices! The Kit includes our own produced camshafts, X.Pipes, Bike air cover, tuning air filter, and a PowerCommander with our Raisch setting for the Kit (so you can use it Plug&Play and do not have to visit a Dyno on your own). Also a coplete instruction to imstall the Kit.
World wide free delivery!
Take a look at the Power Kits on our side to get more informations about it and the some Dyno runs and so on.

http://www.classicbike-raisch.de/en/...h-tuning-kits/

The Kits for Bonneville, Street modells and Bobber will follow in the next month.

 

[dynajohn]

I would like to buy the larger air box inlet/with seal for the Thruxton R. I went to the site and don't see it listed as a separate part. Possibly later experiment with their camshaft.
Thanks for the link.

 

[RHB]

I would like to buy the larger air box inlet/with seal for the Thruxton R. I went to the site and don't see it listed as a separate part. Possibly later experiment with their camshaft.
Thanks for the link.

Just email Rainer, he responds very quickly.

 

[dynajohn]

I did and he did respond. I sent another e-mail requesting how to order the part (what is the part number?) and how to order it with credit card when it is not listed. Thanks again for sharing this information.

 

[dynajohn]

Order sent for new (larger) air box inlet. Looks like a nice piece that has larger than stock radiused inlet. The dyno will tell the story. Thanks again RHB for the link.
John

 

[Thib.]

I dont understand what is this larger air filter cover ?
where did it go ? in place of the snorkel ?
How can it be larger by adding this cover ?

 

[RHB]

Either you cut the airbox, or as on my Street Twin, the hole remaining after snorkel and its' gasket is removed, could be fitted with a radiused cover a little larger than the original snorkel inlet. I thought of making my own.

 

[dynajohn]

The dyno charts shown by classicbike-raisch are shown in the German units for HP & TQ (DIN for HP & NM for TQ). The difference between DIN HP & SAE HP is very small but the difference between NM's of TQ and SAE TQ numbers is much greater. On the stage 4 kit HP chart the HP in DIN is 102.48 which converts to 101.07 SAE HP. The TQ chart for the stage 4 kit lists a 103.28 peak which converts to 76.18 ft/lbs of TQ. To convert DIN HP to SAE HP divide the DIN number by 1.0139. To convert metric TQ (NM) to ft/lbs of SAE torque multiply the metric number (NM) torque X .7376. These dyno runs were done on a DynoJet dyno but I don't see whether they are corrected or actual numbers. Either way they are pretty impressive as no exhaust modifications are listed other than the cat replacement.

 

[Greyfell]

What is the connection between horsepower/torque and 5252 RPM's?

 

[dynajohn]

What is the connection between horsepower/torque and 5252 RPM's?

To understand the question you asked requires some math and an explanation of some basic concepts.
WORK - Work is a measurement of a force acting through a distance: Example ft/lb "foot pounds" (pounds=force, foot=distance).
POWER - Power is the measurement of the rate at which work is performed and therefore how much energy is consumed during a process. The units are therefore force through a distance per unit of time. power measures how much work is being done over a given time interval: Example ft lb/sec (foot=distance, lb=force, sec=time).
HORSEPOWER - Horsepower is simply a unit of power. It is defined under the assumption that a horse can move 33,000 pounds 1 foot per minute (1 HP=33,000 ft/lb per minute). Since there are 60 seconds in a minute, horsepower can be reduced to 550
ft lb/second. Horsepower was originally defined by James Watt (inventor of the steam engine) to compare the power of his steam engines to the power of a horse which everyone understood at the time.
TORQUE - Torque is the measure of an objects tendency to rotate about a point. It is a measure of work, and in terms of an engines output can be simply described as the net twisting force. Torque, which is measured about a fixed axis, is not a time dependent variable.
Horsepower and torque are closely related concepts. An advantageous method to understand the relationship between horsepower and torque is to look at the formulas for computing HP & TQ.

Torque=(horsepower x 5,252) divided by rpm
Horsepower=(torque x rpm) divided by 5252

A dynamometer actually measures torque and calculates horsepower using the formula above. Don't get confused by the 5,252, it is a mathematical constant derived from the fact that a one foot circle has a circumference of 6.2832 feet. Dividing 33,000 by 6.2832 gives you 5,252.

I want to note that the units used here are imperial units. Metric units for HP & TQ are the units most commonly used by engineers and the science community. If you look at a dyno chart that uses metric units the HP & TQ cross at a different RPM than 5252. If you look at the link to dyno charts from Classic bike Raisch they are shown in metric units and the HP & TQ charts are on separate dyno graphs. If they had shown both on the same graph the lines would have crossed at around 9,200 RPM if memory serves me correctly.

Hopes this helps. I simplified the derivation of the 5252 constant and can give a longer complete math explination if necessary.

John

 

[Greyfell]

You didn't look at the linked article and video?

 

[dynajohn]

Yes I did, and it was not my intention to step on your post with the links. Dave M requested that I post on technical subjects that might have some interest here last year. I posted on this subject so that the information would be directly on the forum for reference and spark some discussion if there was further interest.