Some Progress In Finding More Engine Performance

[RHB]

Do not let any shop that drills into you're ECU work on it. If anybody can do it Guhl Performance can. Guhl does all re-programming thru the stock connectors, he does not cut into the ECU. He told me he was concentrating all his time on the Japanese bikes. Currently he does no European bikes as far as I know. This guy really knows his business and until he is persuaded to take on the Triumph My ECU will remain stock. Don Guhl has done ECU work for Honda's factory Indy team. I have repeatedly posted on this forum that if you are interested in a ECU with the stock restrictions removed CALL his shop and request he re-flash you're ECU. He will have to see enough demand before he is going to put the R&D into mapping the Triumph ECU code to perform re-flashes.

I'm not doubting Guhl's expertise in any way, but your wrong about your assumptions, and my question was around the point that the Triupmh ECU is locked preventing any third party from doing any tampering or flashing by any method, that was my understanding, subject to correction.
I had FTECU the top Team Yamaha racing tuner in California in fact extract the code from my MT07 ECU, it is common practice in their case to open the ecu by drilling a small hole to access the necessary contacts, they reseal it with factory epoxy compound. This is only necessary on the first ECU to obtain the tables or raw data, which then have to be laboriously interpreted into usable data. ( I don't pretend to understand the particulars) After this is done once to one ECU it is a simple matter of re-flashing subsequent ECUs through the factory ECU connectors. Since in my case they did not have an "open" ECU for the MT07 they offered to use mine at no risk to get the tables, after which, I had Nels Byersdorf at 2WheelDynoWorks flash my ECU to specifications I requested. The data for the MT07 ECU is now listed on the FTECU website for tuners, and I was compensated by FTECU in a very nice way.

If you don't know these companies, I suggest you google them.

My question remains: aren't the Triumph WCTwins locked, preventing any flashing? It is what I have read everywhere else.

 

[dynajohn]

RHB I do not know if Triumph has "locked" their ECU or not. Don Guhl does not drill into the ECU cases of the ECU's he re-flashes. He works through the factory connectors to access the factory programming. He re-flashed my Honda VFR-1200 (Mine was the first one he had done) and my 2012 ZX-14. I went back to him asking him to take a look at my Thruxton ECU but he declined. At the time he said he didn't do any European bikes at this time. He said he didn't have the time currently to take on another project. I am still trying to get him to take a look and see what he can do. I am not saying no one else can do the job, I just haven't found anyone else to date that says they even tried to re-flash a Thruxton 1200.

 

[dynajohn]

Well the results are in. My Thruxton now makes 102.83 HP and 81.39 ft. pounds TQ.
This was the result of changing the head pipes, the air filter and tuning for the changes.
I will post the details when I get to Commenwealth and get all the data and pictures from Chad. These gains are more complicated than it sounds like which I will explain when I have all the data.

 

[shanered6]

Thats awsome !

 

[RHB]

RHB I do not know if Triumph has "locked" their ECU or not.

They have, it's rather common knowledge among tuners.

 

[dynajohn]

I am posting the dyno sheet from the latest changes which include installing the Arrow
pipes and an aftermarket air filter. This dyno sheet shows the baseline run (in red) when I brought the bike to Commonwealth this time for instillation of the Arrow pipes and the new air filter. The runfile 005 in red was with stock pipes, the cat bypass, Triumph/V&H slip on mufflers with the DB plugs removed, the hotter cam installed, top section of intake tube removed, DynoJet PC5 with custom map, RPM limiter raised from 7,200 to 7,600 RPM's.

The runfile 024 in blue is with the Arrow pipes installed, the cat bypass removed, the new air filter installed, the hotter cam installed, the top half of the intake removed, the RPM limiter raised from 7,600 to 7,800 RPM's and the PC5 re-mapped for the changes. It took 21 dyno pulls to get these results.

If you look at the bottom of the map at the red & blue lines which are the air/fuel ratio notice how straight and consistent they are. For best power the bike wanted about 13/1 fuel ratio. With the Arrow pipes installed it wanted a slightly richer fuel air ratio in the first roughly 60% of the RPM range. The consistent fuel/air ratio lines are the result of very careful and thorough dyno tuning by Chad.

 

[shanered6]

Would you say there was a lot of difference from stock ?... i can see youve gained 7+ hp does the bike feel alot better for it and would you say the money was well spent for the amount of gain .

 

[dynajohn]

Shanered6 Yes there is quite a bit of difference Between the bike now and when it was completely stock. If you go back and read this thread from the first post you will see the bike made 87.42 HP & 74.6 ft./lbs. of TQ. when it was completely stock and I started this project. That is a gain of 15.41 HP and 6.79 ft./lbs. of TQ. It feels significantly stronger now. As to whether it was worth the money and effort, it is to me but it might not be to you or most other Thruxton 1200 owners. There is nothing wrong with the stock performance of the Thruxton & Thruxton R stock, I just wanted more. It cost me more money and effort because I, as far as I know, am the first guy here to try modifying the bike beyond putting a set of slip on mufflers on, possibly installing a cat bypass and removing the top half of the inlet air snorkel. There is very little information on improving the performance of the Thruxton 1200 out there. No one made a high performance cam so we had to spec. our own and have it custom ground. Since there was no blueprint for improving the engine performance we had to try one change at a time and verify what worked or didn't work by testing each change on the dyno.

 

[shanered6]

That is a fare bit of gain and now i have read the whole thread i see you have pioneered the market in thruxton tuning , and you cant put a price on personal customisation and tuning .
I have a tiger 955i which i am planing to build a propper dessert racer paris dakar style bike and race it in some of the adventure style raids we do over here in the uk , its not going to be easy but as youve found with your Truxton it sould be quite rewarding when its finnished .

 

[dynajohn]

Shane you are right it is hard to put a price on personalizing a bike or a car for that matter. You do it for a lot of personal reasons and you seldom get any of the investment back when you sell. I am and old guy now (will be 75 soon) and I have been doing project bikes & cars like this one since 1965. I used to do a lot of drag racing with bikes but my reaction times ended my on track racing 15 years ago. I am a retired mechanical engineer and I still enjoy building motors as much as I still enjoy riding my creations.

Good luck with you're 955I. I did a lot of off road riding when I was in my 20's & 30's and loved every minute of it.

 

[shanered6]

Yes im the same i get just as much out of fettling my bikes as i do riding them and love nothing more than to turn an ugly duckling in to something that im proud of .

 

[brianpal]

I am curious how the cam is ground? Does it now have positive overlap? Was lift increased? How much lift does stock have and how much can the springs handle? Great work and I think this may be one of the first cam swaps I have seen actual results from. I would be curious what Triumph's "race cam" looked like before it got cancelled. I just think this motor is capable of 110-120 hp in streetable form so I am curious. Also the dyno's seem to show little low end loss, but does it feel that way?

Thanks.

 

[dynajohn]

I was wondering about when someone would ask about cam specs. As stated in a earlier post the stock cams have negative overlap. I cannot give you exact specs on the custom ground Web cam per the request of Commonwealth Cycle because they own the rights to the cam. Because Web Cam does not at present have cam blanks for Triumph Thruxton 1200's the cam we had ground is a hard weld re-grind. My stock cam was used and the lobes were welded up and then re-ground to the new specs. Hardweld regrind cams are more durable but much more expensive than cams ground on cam blanks. The stock centerlines were retained and the lift remains the same as stock. The duration for the intake and exhaust were increased. The stock lift as measured is .393" on the intake and .345" on the exhaust. The stock valve springs are fine with the new cam since the lifts remained the same and the longer duration means gentler valve acceleration numbers. The stock rev limiter was increased from the stock setting by 400 RPM's initially after installing the new cam and again by another 200 RPM's when we did the last changes & tuning (7,800 RPM now). The 600 RPM increase has only increased the average piston speed from 3778/FPM to 4093/FPM. This is still well within what is conservative.

 

[dynajohn]

I did not get to finish my last post because my wife drug me off to eat dinner out.

We originally specified the cam to Web with a wider split on the centerlines as well as additional duration and it wasn't until we received the regrind that we found they had ground the cam using the stock centerlines. The explanation was that we had not provided clearances for piston deck height or piston to valve clearance figures for 15 degrees before top dead center to 15 degrees after top dead center, so they used the known safe centerlines. Yes we now have positive overlap because of the increased duration. This was a first effort cam design on our part for a mild drop in cam based on experience with other four valve motors. I am satisfied we were well within the ballpark for what we were trying to achieve. If I had unlimited resources we would have had 4 or 5 different spec cams ground but I don't. Years ago when Kevin Erion was running a superbike race effort for Honda he told me at Mid Ohio that he went through 12 cam designs for the Honda XX Blackbird before he arrived at the final cam he sold.

The answer to your question about the small loss in HP on the bottom end is no I cannot feel it. There is at least 110 RWHP to be had but not until the basic problem of the throttle plates closing off 15% above 7,000 RPM is resolved. I could get the loss in power on the low end back by milling the head and raising the compression ratio. My original intent is still the same (to find the limit) without going into the motor past changing the camshaft along with exhaust changes, intake changes and proper tuning of the fuel & ignition.

 

[RHB]

Without access to the ECU for a proper refrlash and remap from the ECU side, your going to be limited. There are other firms making cams for the 1200 WC twin in germany, they are up against the same wall. There was a project bike (900cc ST) made for flat tracking that was supplied cams remaps or ECU flash and who knows what else by Triumph.
http://www.bikeexif.com/triumph-street-twin-flat-tracker
Motone is also working with a German firm who has made new cams for the WC twins using their Cross over pipe.
You might try looking around some other forums and doing some power searching.

 

[brianpal]

Triumph is keeping everything so tight. Anyone else notice how there are no instructions with any of there accessories? I also made the mistake of changing my own oil for the first oil change. Dealership was not happy. I understand the thought process, but holy smokes. Loosen' up a bit. Most motorcycle owners are gearheads that I know, but Triumph treats us like we just bought a new Lexus. Queue up the "premium experience" oil changes and service.

Rant over. Thanks for the info on the cams. I will anxiously await Triumph's unlocking of the ECU, and I am crazy about the bike.

 

[dynajohn]

Without access to the ECU for a proper refrlash and remap from the ECU side, your going to be limited. There are other firms making cams for the 1200 WC twin in germany, they are up against the same wall. There was a project bike (900cc ST) made for flat tracking that was supplied cams remaps or ECU flash and who knows what else by Triumph.
http://www.bikeexif.com/triumph-street-twin-flat-tracker
Motone is also working with a German firm who has made new cams for the WC twins using their Cross over pipe.
You might try looking around some other forums and doing some power searching.

I have been all over the internet looking for suppliers or individuals working on performance mods for the 1200cc water cooled triumphs, especially the Thruxton for the last 10 months. I had already been on both the US & UK sites for Motone. They currently list no performance parts for the 1200 motor that I could find. I sent a information request to them yesterday about any cam development they are doing with German company's and so far no reply. I called Dan Baisley (Baisley Performance) 6 months ago about his work on developing performance parts & porting for the 1200 cc Triumph. Dan had a contract with someone in the USA to develop the 1200 motor but it was cancelled before he really got started because of rules changes in the class the motor was being developed for. I did find a Triumph dealer in Texas who was developing a de-stroked version of the 1200 which was 900cc. They had gotten 118 HP so far using Kehin flat slide carbs. He said they were turning the 900cc motor over 10,500 RPM's. A lot of custom engine parts here running in a custom built chassis. Nothing he had or was working on applied a 1200CC Triumph street motor. I have searched specifically for company's in GB, Australia, Germany that had developed cams & other engine parts for the Thruxton 1200 with no success. The site at Triumph listing they're cam is still up but lists it as in testing just as it did 9 months ago. Every company I found that advertised ECU re-flashes for triumph said they could not help me with the new 1200 ECU. Several of the US shops referred me to Don Guhl saying that if anyone could crack this ECU it would probably be his shop. To sum up it was not for lack of trying that we could not find either a ECU re-flash or cams for the Thruxton 1200. I have not given up on Don Guhl. He didn't say he could not do the Re-flash since he has not had one to try. He said 6 months ago he had to many projects in the pipeline to take the R&D on for the Triumph at present. Thanks for the 900cc flat tracker link it was interesting.

 

[RHB]

I'll try to find the link to the german forum that indicated they had developed a cam, sadly, I did not save it. Sounds like you did everything you could do. Just an opinion here, but theses engines were set up to be very low revving and exhibit low end maximum torque, in addition Triumph seems to be boutique tuning each iteration of both the 1200 and 900 twins. one tune for bobber, another for Thruxton etc. On top of that they are making it difficult or impossible to alter the basic parameters in the ECU, so in reality we don't own our engines but are renting a proprietary software. Until there is some breakthrough, we are stuck with what they give us. I have seen a lot of dyno charts for both the 900 and 1200, none show any great peoformance gains due to the ECU being locked. That said, Nels Byersdorf (2wheel Dyno Works) says they are getting pretty good results with intake/exhaust mods using a PCV as did you.
I think the average guy will be happy with a CAT delete, new cans, and some very basic intake mods, and possibly a
a/F remap. However these engines are so conservatively tuned a remap seems unnecessary from a safety perspective. Most of the gains I have seen are within the 5-10% range, which in my experience is all that you can expect this side of new cams, and internal mods.

 

[dynajohn]

RHB we are pretty much in agreement. As far as intake mods go there is further testing I would like to do. Removing the top half of the intake snorkel made a measurable difference in mid range torque on the dyno. Replacing the stock air filter with a K&N made no real repeatable difference. The frame tubes are so close to the two throttle body's there is no room to mount individual K&N filters unless they make ones with offset boots. There is a replacement air intake made in Australia but I have seen no test data to support the claims made. That's the problem with a lot of the exhaust parts including cat delete crossovers being marketed. We found that the stock mufflers made more HP & TQ than the Triumph V&H mufflers when both were properly tuned for. We tested the V&H mufflers with the DB restrictors installed & removed against the stock mufflers and the stock mufflers were better. The V&H/Triumph mufflers made a small positive difference with the DB restrictors removed over the stock mufflers when the crossover cat delete was installed. When the cam was installed the Triumph/V&H mufflers were really better than the stock mufflers. We had also increased the rev limit by 600 RPM through the PC5 when we installed the cam and the stock mufflers really dropped off with the extra RPM's.

 

[brianpal]

So in the link for the flat tracker Jason says there is a ton more power than how it comes from the factory for the 900's. Certainly that has to be for the 1200 as well with a remap. C'mon Triumph, unlock that ECU. Enlarged throttle bodies, bigger diameter exhaust headers, etc. A camshaft may not even be the biggest piece of the puzzle.