Tiger 900 Throttle Response

[RichardPaul]

Hi guys,

Okay, so this is my 1st Triumph, and I am absolutely loving the bike.

Just wondering though... I change gears the "old fashioned" way - with the clutch.

I find that the bike holds it's revs relatively high for a short (shortish) period of time, every time I close the throttle & engage the clutch.

I would assume, this might have to do something with the fact that the bike is actually set up to use the quickshifter.

Is there any way I could get the throttle to "drop the revs" a lot quicker, every time I close the throttle (engage the clutch)? Would the dealership be able to set this for me?
Or is this just a trait of the Triumph 900?

Thanks for any input.

 

[atomsplitter]

My 2022 Speed Triple reacts similarly when using the clutch. The ECU is programmed for anti-stall on my bike which means the revs pick up when I let the clutch out without my twisting the throttle. The TSA picks the revs up slighltly before it shifts, it's doing that apparently with or without the clutch. Have you tried pulling the clutch then dropping the throttle out? I think it's a matter of getting used to what the ECU is doing. TuneECU may have a solution for your issue, but it would have to be a newer custom map.

 

[brooke]

Sounds a bit unnerving . Don’t think my ‘23 tiger 850 sport does that one .

 

[atomsplitter]

Once you understand what it's doing it's fine. Your Tiger 850 may not have the shift assist (didn't see it listed in the Specs). The ECU definately has fueling ratios per gear, but probably won't add any with clutching like the TSA models.

 

[turbohawk]

Hi guys,

Okay, so this is my 1st Triumph, and I am absolutely loving the bike.

Just wondering though... I change gears the "old fashioned" way - with the clutch.

I find that the bike holds it's revs relatively high for a short (shortish) period of time, every time I close the throttle & engage the clutch.

I would assume, this might have to do something with the fact that the bike is actually set up to use the quickshifter.

Is there any way I could get the throttle to "drop the revs" a lot quicker, every time I close the throttle (engage the clutch)? Would the dealership be able to set this for me?
Or is this just a trait of the Triumph 900?

Thanks for any input.

My 2020 Rally (not a pro) but with quickshifter installed at purchase does tend to "high idle" from time to time, but the rpm's are literally only about 200-300 more for a half second, like "hanging" for a tad. Nothing concerning, just noted.

Not sure if this sounds like what you described? I attributed to some mapping setting but this is also my first Triumph so I'm not familiar with this kind of fuel mapping. None of the dozens of Japanese bikes with FI I owned ever did this, but some OLDER carb models would act like this if the choke was partially on.

 

[DaveG]

Once I'm rolling I do shift quickly, but I haven't noticed this on my '23 900 Rally Pro and I do shift manually half the time and use the quick shifter the other half of the time (especially when accelerating quickly). ;-)

 

[turbohawk]

Once I'm rolling I do shift quickly, but I haven't noticed this on my '23 900 Rally Pro and I do shift manually half the time and use the quick shifter the other half of the time (especially when accelerating quickly). ;-)

I should elaborate when I see a "slight" rpm "hang": the only times I've noticed it is when I've slowed down to a quick stop from top-gear and +60 mph...and the throttle seems to "be thinking" about dropping to base idle but hesitates to do so for a few fractions of a second. If this bike had actual throttle cables I would have lubed them AND the throttle housing (and perhaps lubing the throttle housing might be in order?) to rule out a mechanical friction issue. But I've only seen this happen at most 3 or 4 times in 1000 miles of mixed riding and temps. I feel it's a mapping issue related to the throttle position sensor and sensor(s) being "computed" to come to a set map point. I have not detected ANY mechanical "hanging" of the throttle assembly at all. It's quite fluid in it's motion.

 

[brooke]

Light just came on … this happened years ago when fuel injection was becoming the norm on automobiles and was really only noticed on standard transmission vechicles . When you were shifting gears the tach would hang up there for a split second before there next gear up was engaged and some noticed but many did not . The explanation was emissions related . They were keeping the throttle open a bit to help burn some extra fuel created as the throttle closed . The last standard I had was a 92 Camry but I don’t think it did it .

 

[Qship]

Unburnt fuel going into the cats will shorten the life span of them quickly. That's why almost every new vehicle will throw a CEL code for even one misfire on todays engines.
Probably the reasoning behind the hanging revs.

 

[daggy]

As said above the ECU is programmed for anti-stall. Try this, as you are sitting at a red light slowly let out the clutch & you'll notice the revs pick-up, that's the anti stall kicking in

 

[turbohawk]

As said above the ECU is programmed for anti-stall. Try this, as you are sitting at a red light slowly let out the clutch & you'll notice the revs pick-up, that's the anti stall kicking in

This does makes the most sense. I'll glean the service manual to see if it's mentioned (or do you already have a page to refer us to?).

 

[atomsplitter]

As said above the ECU is programmed for anti-stall. Try this, as you are sitting at a red light slowly let out the clutch & you'll notice the revs pick-up, that's the anti stall kicking in

My Speed Triple RS 1200 is the same way, revs pick up with clutch release. It's normal.

 

[brooke]

Thanks will check that out myself

 

[rodders]

This is certainly the anti-stall device adding revs.

The problem is that Triumph has made a trail-bike with as much torque as an egg soufflé. To get around this poor design and engineering, they have added an RPM increase device.

Now any decent motor manufacturer would have increased the piston stroke and added offset cylinders. But the dumbarrse wokites in the Triumph design department tried to use software instead.

This is the same as the Boeing 737 Max, and its MCAS anti-stall device. Any decent aircraft manufacturer would have added a stick pusher (as on the BAC 1-11, Trident or Bae 146). But that was expensive, so they tweaked the software instead - and some 300 people died as a result.

In a similar fashion to the g-d awful Ford Pinto (worst car of the century), Boeing calculated that killing a few people was cheaper than a proper redesign and re certification.

So when your Tiger throttle sticks open and punches you through a brick wall, just remember that your life is much cheaper than designing a proper engine with adequate torque in the first place.

.

Ford Motor Cars
Quote: "It Is Cheaper To Let Customers Burn"
https://www.spokesman.com/blogs/autos/2008/oct/17/pinto-memo-its-cheaper-let-them-burn
I am sure that Triumph have similar memos...

Rod

 

[atomsplitter]

I'm not quite as cynical as Rodders, but there are some lunatics in the design department at Boeing. The whole 737 Max problem had little to do with software and more to do with redundancy (actually lack thereof). The pitot tube that was an input to the anti-stall system had only one external input instead of multiple seperate inputs. They based the whole thing on that one instrument never ever failing, stupid beyond belief.

No nuke plant was ever built that way because too much is riding on the outcome. Even Chernobyl had redundant instruments, it took really ignorant Operators to blow that thing up. It didn't help they tipped the control rods with graphite which is a neutron moderator, but even so there were multiple instruments and warning alarms in the Control Room telling them they had operated their system beyond safe engineered design, they just chose to ignore them.

As to anti-stall of Triumph it's my opinion that is tied to the Shift Assist. If you have the TSA on your bike (like my Speed Triple) you can shift up and down without clutching and the ECU controls the engine's RPM.

 

[rodders]

The whole 737 Max problem had little to do with software and more to do with redundancy (actually lack thereof). The pitot tube that was an input to the anti-stall system had only one external input instead of multiple separate inputs.

Yes and no.

Boeing 737:
They should never have put an anti-stall device on a stabiliser-trimmer in the first place. This is something you learn on your second flight as an ab-initio pilot, and yet Boeing went ahead and did it anyway. The trouble being, that as you recover from the stall, you now have full forward trim applied and you cannot pull out of the ensuing dive. And that presents you with a one-way ticket to Hades. Which the Max demonstrated on two occasions - not very clever.

Someone should have been locked up, for that...

The lack of a duplex or triplex AoA sensor, was a secondary failing.
And someone should have been locked up for that too.
(Note: it was the AoA sensor, not the pitot.)

.

Triumph 900:
Going back to Triumph 900s and 1200s -- likewise you don't sort out a gutless engine with no torque, by adding a software fix. The fundamental cure for this problem, is to give the engine more torque. This is supposed to be a mud-plugger, for gds sake, how can you plug through mud and shiite, if it will not even go around a slow roundabout without stalling?

The cure is a longer stroke, and perhaps offset cylinders.

The Kwaker ZX-10 had (minutely) offset cylinders (only 2mm) but I have not been able to find out what effect this had on performance. They claimed an increase in power, but it should really benefit torque more than power. If anyone has a link to a comparison, I would be interested. The cylinder offset also comes with some increase in secondary balance issues, which may be why Kwaker only made a small adjustment.

(Note: RPM increase is not for shift-assist, although it uses the same computer. It is most certainly an anti-stall device, which is why it increases RPM as you let the clutch out from a standstill - because that is when this gutless engine will stall.

R

 

[Vector]

I no longer fly, I hold a Commercial Pilot Rating and after 28 years of being Air Traffic I've seen too much.
The FAA stopped hiring and promoting the best decades ago.

 

[rodders]

The FAA stopped hiring and promoting the best decades ago.

True. I flew for 40 years, but the new crop of diversity hires should not be left in charge of a bicycle, let alone a big jet.

Trouble is - those diversity hires are now becoming captains, which is why I no longer fly as a passenger. They will oversee the end of manned aviation, as A.I. rapidly becomes the preferred option.

They always said ‘who would trust a computer’ to fly an airliner. Well, the diversity hires will answer that question very quickly.

R

 

[Vector]

True. I flew for 40 years, but the new crop of diversity hires should not be left in charge of a bicycle, let alone a big jet.

Trouble is - those diversity hires are now becoming captains, which is why I no longer fly as a passenger. They will oversee the end of manned aviation, as A.I. rapidly becomes the preferred option.

They always said ‘who would trust a computer’ to fly an airliner. Well, the diversity hires will answer that question very quickly.

R

I was speaking of Controllers but yes, the best pilots are no longer the goal.