Lithium Battery CCA

[solomon]

Sometime in the future, I'll fit an original Meriden starter to my T120V.

If the engine backfires when using the starter, it will destroy the starter mechanism, or the engine pinions, or the crankcase.

A high CCA battery helps reduce backfire.
Motobatt are used for this reason. However, the are relatively expensive. For not much more a lithium battery can be bought, that has stated very high CCA, up to 350 CCA I've seen for a 5Ah battery (which is maybe risky in itself, might melt something or damage starting mechanism from too much power)?

It's hard to find neutral information. Much of the information is from manufacturers or sellers, or internet posts from individuals which is not particularly qualified. A lot of information is contradictory.

So does anyone know of links to authorative sources? Info on CCA, using existing charging systems for lithium, both bike's and tender.

Not interested in Ah, weight, size, longevity, discharge issues, that's all straightforward. Just CCA and charging on board and with a (Oxford Optimiser in my case) tender. I know the lithium have high CCA, I can start my car with a lithium battery that is the size of a packet of cigarettes.

 

[Rudie]

authorative sources? Info on CCA

What do you want to know? If you want to know if 350 ccA is adequate, yes; compare with the ccA of the Yuasa battery Meriden fitted to electric start twins.

using existing charging systems for lithium, both bike's and tender.

Tender answer is easy, just use the one the battery maker recommends. Then, if the battery goes wrong on the tender, you are not caught between a battery maker blaming the tender maker and a tender maker blaming the battery maker.

However, remember one of the alleged advantages of lithium batteries is they can go many months unused without losing charge. So a tender might be an unnecessary expense.

Bike's charging system is harder - you have to study the battery maker's recommended charging profile, particularly what is expected when the battery is fully charged, then compare it to the existing reg/rec charging profile. You could end up paying Shindengen a lot of money for one of their reg/rec ...

Not interested in Ah

Nevertheless, you have posted on a public forum, anyone can read your thread now and in the future.

The battery specifications you have quoted, its 5 Ah rating has a bearing on your charging-on-the-bike question above.

Also, you could find the 5 Ah too low for lengthy low rpm riding, it is this part of a battery that supplies ignition, lights, indicators, horn(s), etc. when engine rpm is too low for the alternator to supply. Indicators and horn are normally used only occasionally; however, e.g. a Santa charity ride combines low rpm for a long time, coupled with much indicator use and "madly tooting"; even if your bike's 3-phase alternator is the higher output version, it might not generate sufficient to keep the battery charged to power everything.

 

[solomon]

I suppose what I was asking is, would the battery really give 350CCA? That's coming on three times as much as a 11aH Motobatt.

Is it possible to have to much CCAs and burn out a Triumph starter, or produce so much torque it shreds the mechanism teeth? Or melts the 25mm² cable?

I would go for 9aH plus, just meant that wasn't my question, about capacity, size, weight, which are fairly clear cut.

I've got a , I assume, an el cheapo generic regulator/rectifier as fitted on many modern bikes.

I have seen a thread where someone spent £100 on a regulator/rectifier after fitting a lithium battery to an old air-cooled Triumph. That sort of expense changes the equation.

The screenshot blurb I posted stated a 'normal' charger would be fine. Yet lithium battery manufacturers produce (expensive, £50) chargers for their batteries. Why?

My small lithium battery to start the car in emergencies came with a free charger (a simple adapter). It can be charged from the car ciger lighter. Motorcycle lithium batteries seem to come with more complications.

 

[Rudie]

would the battery really give 350CCA?

Compare with similar-size - physical and Ah - lithium batteries by other makers? E.g. Shorai seems to be the make most often mentioned on forums by those using a lithium battery of one type or other.

Is it possible to have to much CCAs and burn out a Triumph starter

No. As with any electrical component, the Amps drawn by a starter are a function of the starter's internal resistance (Ohms) and the Volts across it. The basic link is Ohm's Law (Volts = Amps x Ohms).

or produce so much torque it shreds the mechanism teeth?

Unlikely given Meriden fitted Lucas M3 starters to 750 twins.

However, unless you are changing all the components in the timing chest to the latest ones Meriden fitted to 750 twins, the reason Meriden changed them was earlier components failed because they were not specified for transmitting the starter torque to the crankshaft.

Or melts the 25mm² cable?

Unlikely given the cable is rated for 170 Amps and has a substantial safety margin ... However, the first time I pressed the starter button, I would have my clamp-on Ammeter on the cable between battery -ve and the engine, then I would know how many Amps the starter can draw ...

My small lithium battery to start the car in emergencies came with a free charger (a simple adapter). It can be charged from the car ciger lighter.

Car charging systems are different; their alternators are electro-magnets; as the car's battery approaches full charge, the charge control reduces the alternator output by reducing the power through the magnets. What you do not get on cars is DC Volts rising to 15V because the alternator is a permanent magnet ...

The screenshot blurb I posted stated a 'normal' charger would be fine. Yet lithium battery manufacturers produce (expensive, £50) chargers for their batteries. Why?

Define "normal", especially for when you are trying to claim for a failed lithium battery under warranty ... Afaict, there does not appear to be much practical experience of lithium batteries on fifty year old motorcycles with "el cheapo generic regulator/rectifiers" ...

I've got a , I assume, an el cheapo generic regulator/rectifier as fitted on many modern bikes.

Not a useful description; some photos?

Also, not all modern bikes have lithium batteries as standard; as I posted earlier, my feeling is you will need either to choose a lithium battery by a maker who has expressed a positive technical opinion of the regulator/rectifier on your bike now, or fit a regulator/rectifier from a bike fitted as standard with a lithium battery?

 

[Bloodknot]

This may be restating what @Rudie has said above but:-

The original Meriden system of using the timing gears to rotate the crank is known to be fragile in certain circumstances.

I have no reason to doubt the manufacturer’s claims for CCA on LiFePO4 batteries but are the electrical components in the electrical infrastructure of your machine robust enough to cope with the high output capability of a LiFePO4 battery?

Conversely, is your machine going to throw more than 14.6 volts at your LiFePO4 battery.

I doubt your Oxford Optimiser will be regarded as suitable. The Optimate 1 duo will be, but it’s £53. The reason some battery optimisers are not regarded as being suitable is not because they are not capable, quite the opposite, it’s because they have a desulphate mode which, if the device decides to use will chuck something like 22 volts at the battery.

LiFePO4 battery’s low temperature performance can be bettered by a decent AGM battery.

Finally the reason I would not go down the LiFePO4 route is one of trust. I have had and continue to get excellent service out of my military spec Odyssey AGM battery that is now 12 years old. To find your machine engulfed in a fire that you will be unable to extinguish is not a situation I wish to chance.

 

[solomon]

Found this in-depth article. It addresses lithium vintage bike charging, charging tenders, etc. Not necessarily unbiased as sponsored.

A big advantage of lithium on an old Triumph with a starter might be the volts don't drop in cranking (which could cause a kickback and destroy bike) if I understand the article correctly.

https://www.motorcycle.com/products/lithium-motorcycle-batteries-myths-vs-realities

 

[Rudie]

A big advantage of lithium on an old Triumph with a starter might be the volts don't drop in cranking (which could cause a kickback and destroy bike) if I understand the article correctly.

Imho, it is overstated in the article (as you have posted, the article is sponsored ... ).

One of the standard T160's electric starting problems was the original starter cables were under-specified. I changed my T160's cables for the size I have advised you to use, no noticeable Volts drop when using the electric starter, I have never used a lithium battery.

In addition to the cable size, I have also advised you to have a clamp-on Ammeter on one of the cables the first time you press the starter. This will be to check that the starter is not drawing more current than the cable rating. If the starter is not drawing more current than the cable rating, that will have eliminated one reason for any Volts drop when using the electric starter.

 

[solomon]

have a clamp-on Ammeter on one of the cables the first time you press the starter. This will be to check that the starter is not drawing more current than the cable rating

Didn't know these ammeters existed. Just saved one for later buying, and watched a YouTube video on how to use one.

 

[Bloodknot]

Imho, it is overstated in the article (as you have posted, the article is sponsored ... ).

One of the standard T160's electric starting problems was the original starter cables were under-specified. I changed my T160's cables for the size I have advised you to use, no noticeable Volts drop when using the electric starter, I have never used a lithium battery.

In addition to the cable size, I have also advised you to have a clamp-on Ammeter on one of the cables the first time you press the starter. This will be to check that the starter is not drawing more current than the cable rating. If the starter is not drawing more current than the cable rating, that will have eliminated one reason for any Volts drop when using the electric starter.

Ensuring that the cables are not undersized is well worthwhile. It was suggested that this might have been a cause of the sluggish starting of my Ducati. Instead of replacing the cables I purchased some beefier ones and ran them alongside the OE cables and it does make a difference. So if in doubt go OTT on your cable sizing.