HD Drops Models from 2010 Lineup

[CarlS]

I took this from the NTBF forum

factory statement: discontinuing the Electra glide standard, Road Glide, Night Train, Rocker, Dyna Low Rider, 883C sportster.

Harley Davidson will be requesting Congress limit import displacement (700cc) on all import motorcycles.

HD requested limiting imports to bikes 700 cc and under in the 1980's and Congress enacted a tariff on bikes over 700 cc displacement. President Reagan signed the measure. It wasn't a bailout of HD which was suffering from Japanese competition; but it amounted to the same thing. If a similar measure were inacted, it would not be good for Triumph and especially for the T-Bird.

However, the landscape is considerably different in 2009 than it was in the 80's. HD sells over 25% of their production overseas and we have trade agreements that were not in place in the '80s. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kawasaki all have manufacturing facilities in the US which they did not have in in the 80's. BMW and Mercedes also have manufacturing plants here. I do not think the current administration is willing to risk a trade war by evoking tariffs. However, politics can be very strange.

I think the discontinuing of some of HD models is the beginning of a revamp. My guess is that it the prelude to HD phasing out the push rod V-twin. It is obsolete and very dirty technology. The new HD's are so choked with anti-pollution garbage to meet EPA requirements that they will barely run. You can make them run fine by yanking that garbage off. I believe they will introduce new models based on the liquid cooled V-Rod engine. The air cooled V Twin customer base is aging and declining. I think HD will revamp to meet the market. But they are going to have reduce their prices to compete in today's market.

 

[Dilligaf]

I our politicians cared about US companies they would not only agree to HD's request but put a tariff on imported cars.

 

[The Seeker]

Wow is all I can say. ............And all the models they are dropping?

I gotta let this sink-in before commenting.....

 

[DaveM]

This may just be what the T Bird needs uncertainty in the HD camp

 

[Silli]

Triumph in the USA does not need this, though......................

Harley Davidson will be requesting Congress limit import displacement (700cc) on all import motorcycles.

 

[Ksquared]

[quote author=Dilligaf link=topic=5174.msg29281#msg29281 date=1239679564]
I our politicians cared about US companies they would not only agree to HD's request but put a tariff on imported cars.
[/quote]

Do I understand that you think that any American who wants to buy a motorcycle of 700 cc's or more should be forced to buy a Harley-Davidson or a Victory?

 

[CarlS]

If our politicians cared about US companies they would not only agree to HD's request but put a tariff on imported cars.

I am surprised that did not happen in the 80's since they put a tariff on imported motorcycles. The present administration does not care about American businesses; they are most definitely not business oriented. They do care about votes. If by putting a tariffs on bikes, cars, - anything imported - would assure them of reelection, they would do it. However, tariffs have a way of backfiring. Many of the party faithful are in love with imported autos, particularly Honda, (according to demographic studies). Tariffs would also bring about a rise in prices and our money would not go as far. That would cause great discontent among the masses. I don't see a tariff on cars happening.

However many Japanese cars are assembled in the US along with BMW's and Mercedes. Such a tariff on cars would only affect Subaru, Suzuki, Kia, Hyundai, etc. I will have to research it; but I think Honda and Kawasaki assemble some bikes in the US.

[quote author=Silli link=topic=5174.msg29286#msg29286 date=1239688627]
Triumph in the USA does not need this, though......................

Harley Davidson will be requesting Congress limit import displacement (700cc) on all import motorcycles.
[/quote]

You are right. Every Triumph model, not just the T-Bird, would become much more expensive. The T-bird would be most affected, though, because it is targeted at the American market.

In the 1980's, 800 + cc's were still a big bike. The bulk of the Japanese bikes sold in the US were smaller bikes. That is not the case today. One is hard pressed to find bikes under 600 cc's (except off road bikes). My read on the Obama administration is that they are not about to risk a trade war with the economy like it is.

 

[CarlS]

[quote author=Ksquared link=topic=5174.msg29308#msg29308 date=1239708757]

[quote author=Dilligaf link=topic=5174.msg29281#msg29281 date=1239679564]
I our politicians cared about US companies they would not only agree to HD's request but put a tariff on imported cars.
[/quote]

Do I understand that you think that any American who wants to buy a motorcycle of 700 cc's or more should be forced to buy a Harley-Davidson or a Victory?
[/quote]

And that is the bottom line - and you could add Buel. HD has built for and marketed to a certain demographic segment. That segment is dwindling and aging. They produce a fine quality bike. They certainly have the technical ability and the the know how to build other bikes to appeal to different market segments. And I suspect that is what HD is planning to do. Designing, testing, certifying and building new models from scratch takes time. I assume HD is looking for government protection while it does this. Poor prior planning and market research on HD's part should not constitute an emergency on the government and the consumers' parts. HD chose the path they are on; consumers should not have to pay the price for HD's failure to keep up with the market. I would feel the same way if it were Triumph or Ford or GM.

I have nothing against HD and I like their bikes. They just do not currently build a bike that fits my needs. If I were into to long distance touring, I would own a Road King. I quit riding for eight years because no built a bike that I particularly liked (except the Kawa WS 650). As I was getting ready to purchase one, Triumph announced the coming new Bonneville; so I waited.

 

[The Seeker]

If they put a tariff on imported bikes, then foreign countries would put a tariff on Harleys which would hurt their 25% of overseas sales. The report also seems to imply that they want Congress to stop importation of anything above 700cc which is insane.

The new HD's are so choked with anti-pollution garbage to meet EPA requirements that they will barely run.

You can blame Congress for that along with the problems with GM and Chrysler.

Harley prices have been artificially high for a number of years. Maybe they need to come back down to Earth a bit.

I still cannot believe they are going to stop producing some of those models....no Road Glide, or 883 Sportster?

BTW.......Subaru also has a huge plant in the USA.

 

[Dilligaf]

[quote author=Ksquared link=topic=5174.msg29308#msg29308 date=1239708757]
Do I understand that you think that any American who wants to buy a motorcycle of 700 cc's or more should be forced to buy a Harley-Davidson or a Victory?
[/quote]

I think our country/politicians should do what is needed to save American companies. GM would be doing fine if they taxed imported cars a few years ago.

 

[The Seeker]

[quote author=Dilligaf link=topic=5174.msg29327#msg29327 date=1239719063]
I think our country/politicians should do what is needed to save American companies. GM would be doing fine if they taxed imported cars a few years ago.
[/quote]

Or if Congress allowed them to sell some of the cars they sell overseas which they won't allow them to sell in the USA.

Congress and the United Autoworkers Union killed GM.

I don't like tariffs personally, but then again, an American car imported to Japan carries a tariff so in that sense, what is fair is fair.

 

[Dilligaf]

I don't like tariffs either but these are desperate times.

HD routinely drops and add models almost every year. This story is being blown out of proportion. Carl may be correct, perhaps they are opening a line for new models. I'd love to see a Roadglide body with a V-Rod engine.

 

[CarlS]

[quote author=The Seeker link=topic=5174.msg29328#msg29328 date=1239719515]
Or if Congress allowed them to sell some of the cars they sell overseas which they won't allow them to sell in the USA.

Congress and the United Autoworkers Union killed GM.

I don't like tariffs personally, but then again, an American car imported to Japan carries a tariff so in that sense, what is fair is fair.
[/quote]

I basically agree. However, there is one more element - pi** poor management. GM's management has in the past been arrogant and unresponsive to consumer's tastes. Also, it is management that rolled over and played dead to the UAW.

Oh, thanks for the info on Subaru; I did not know that they had a plant here. I learned that it is in Indiana and Toyota uses that same plan. Toyota is a share holder in Fuji Heavy Industries, the parent company of Subaru.

Dilligaf, I don't agree that tariffs should be used for protectionism for large corporations. I do think the playing field should be level. If Japan imposes tariffs on our products, we should impose tariff's on theirs. If GB, Germany, and Italy do not impose tariffs on American products, we should not impose tariffs on their products. In the case of GM and Harley Davidson, tariffs would only encourage the same poor management and leadership and marketing choices that got them into the situation in the first place. That is not in the best interest of the consumer.

 

[Dilligaf]

If HD goes under my 07 will be worth a lot more :y115:

 

[CarlS]

They ain't going under; at least I surely hope not. They are going to have to revamp and change their strategy; but they have survived before and I think they will do so again. Folks are still buying HD's and will continue to do so. Now some of their dealerships are going to go under for sure.

 

[The Seeker]

I'm not so sure GM management made the wrong decisions when it came to it's product.

As I mentioned, they are selling some great cars overseas and they sell well there. But Congress refuses to allow them to sell those same models here.

GM has more hybrid models than any other car company on Earth, people just don't tend to buy them. Honda had dropped it's only hybrid model in the USA because of lac of sales. And, let's face it....up until gas prices jumped up to $4.00/gallon, Americans loved their SUVs and 4x4 trucks. The American consumer was pushing that avenue of production and GM had no clue that gas prices would skyrocket when they did...no one did. Even recently, no one's really buying many hybrids percentage-wise.

I'm not sure management had much choice in caving to the unions when the unions could shut down the plants indefinitely, holding out for concessions from the company.

 

[CarlS]

Back when the Miata was introduced to the US, someone suggested that GM should look a producing a similar product - an entry level sports car. The GM CEO at the time made the remark that the Miata was just a California fad and people should by real cars. That arrogance carried through the 80's and into the early 90's. Oh, and the Miata was more than a fad.

Shutting down the plant indefinitely is a joke. The workers have to eat, too. Strike benefits run out. And there are no dues deducted from strike benefits. GM got around the UAW's way of doing things with the Saturn plant. They could have applied that strategy across the board. It might have been better and cheaper to invest in a new plant or plants in open shop states rather than be in hole they are now in. I feel that management could have done a much better job of dealing with the unions over the years.

 

[The Seeker]

I'd agree that they used to suck (management & their cars), but they've been making some decent wheels lately. Perhaps they could have been a bit tougher on the unions, but never enough to compete with the Japanese cars.

 

[CarlS]

Indeed, GM has the best line up of models to choose from on any manufacturer. Management certainly improved in the 90's. And their quality, which was dismal in the 70's and 80's improved dramatically. And GM's management is no more guilty of caving in to UAW than Ford's or Chrysler's. It was a cozy relationship until the Japanese entered the picture.

The best long term solution may will be bankruptcy and reorganization. Under that and a decent judge, the automakers can renegotiate their debt and their union contracts.